Recording/DAW advice

[timbo_93631]

Hey Guys!
     My nephew is turning out to be quite the musician.  At almost 14, he is a really good drummer.  I think of the bands I was in at that age and we couldn't find a steady drummer anywhere.  The rate at which he is picking up stuff is really amazing.  He has taught himself to play bass, guitar, keys, and he can sing to boot.  Love that kid.  He came home from a drum workshop last weekend and said the instructor there said he needed Pro Tools so he could start laying down tracks and analyze his playing, as well a start writing music.  I try to support him in his music (guitar, pedals, sticks, cymbals...) because my sister and her husband are just making ends meet.  I am going to spring for the gear and software he needs, I just don't want to get him anything that is going to be super hard for he and I to learn and use.  I was thinking of getting him the Zoom R16 Multitrack Recorder/DAW Control Surface and a version of Pro Tools (which one I dunno).  I like the idea of the R16 because he can record with it on the go and then come home and work with the raw tracks on Pro Tools. Also I want to get a good all purpose mic for him.  I have a vintage Unidyne III that I use on my amp at church.  The church has a SM57 that I could use instead freeing up the Unidyne III for him.  I have read they are nice for recording drums.   I am thinking my budget is around $500-$600.  What would you guys suggest? 

[jkokura]

Tim, I'm just in the process of getting some recording gear together for myself! I've been doing a lot of research, so hopefully I can help.

At the $500-600 range you're looking at giving him a good start, but maybe not a complete solution.

It depends on a few things like how many channels and how you're going to edit things. Does that include a computer? If not, what kind of inputs does the computer have? What about mic stands? Mic cords? Proper headphones and monitors for recording mixing?

To put this in perspective, to get 4 channels in to my computer and the mics and other equipment I need to record, mix and master my stuff it would cost 3 grand to replace the equipment I've gathered so far before adding the cost of my computer (Mac Book Pro... a gift from a friend).

Here's what I have setup:

Interface = Presonus Audiobox 44vsl ($300 new, 4 mic pres, USB 2.0 interface, comes with Studio One Artist DAW)
DAW = Presonus Studio One 2 Pro ($300 new, upgrade from Artist version, adds functionality and features I wanted in my DAW)
Controller = Presonus Faderport ($150 new, used for mixing)
4 mic stands = About $100
4 high quality mic cords = $100 in materials (I built them myself)
Monitors = Event TR6 pair ($600 new, you can get much cheaper ones)
Headphones = Behringher ? ($40, I don't recommend them, but you can get some decent ones for under $50)
Mic 1 = SM58 ($100 new, staple, similar to the 57, rarely used)
Mic 2 = Beyerdynamic M201TG ($300 new, like a 57 but better, used on snare and electric cabs)
Mic 3 = Audio Technica Pro37r ($200 new, small diaphragm condenser, great on acoustic and drums)
Mic 4&5 = Rode NT1a ($250 each new, large diaphragm condenser, for vocals, acoustic and drums)
Mic 6 = Beyerdynamic M88TG ($350 new, used for kick, bass cabs, and probably electric cabs also)

Big list, but that's what I had available. You should note that in many cases I've bought stuff used, so I probably have spent less than 2 grand rather than the just over 3 grand in rounded new prices. I have paid full price on some things in the past though, merely for the warranty if not the other benefits. The point being, that's what it's taken me to get enough channels and power and quality to make what I consider to be decent recordings and eventually good mixes. This is my spring and summer project really, another album.

In your nephew's case, you and he need to sort out how many inputs you need, what sort of quality level you're wanting to get, and what the end purpose will be. If he's wanting to put out an album like I am, he and you will need to find some creative solutions to come up with the end result. In my case, some gear I've had a long time, and others I've saved for and purchased more recently. In your case, it might be make savvy purchases now in preperation for more purchases down the road. My biggest advice is to not rush out and purchase, but do a LOT of research and come up with a clear path to the end goal.

Jacob

[timbo_93631]

Thanks Jacob,
    Yeah, much research before shelling out cash always is wisest.  Definitely going to start with a barebones setup.  They have a newer laptop that he can use, but I think my folks will probably get him a computer for his birthday if I get the other things.  I was thinking the R16 would be good for him because he could have it set up on a stand in his drum kit to make it easy to record his playing, then he could use it as a contol surface if he wants to take anything he lays down further and make it into a whole song with other instruments.  It isn't gonna ever be a gold record making machine, but I think it would be good for what he needs right now and probably through high school.  I still don't know if it is Pro Tools compatible.  It is described as Cubase, Logic, and Sonar compatible in the product literature. 
     I am really trying to encourage him to take writing seriously because publishing and session work can be a nice living without having to constantly tour and he seems like more of a settle down someday kid but definitely wants to have a career in music.  Allowing him to get into recording right now could really open up alot of good doors for him through college and beyond.  Any other opinions and ideas are most welcome.

[jkokura]

I just looked at that unit via google images, and it's pretty sleek looking. Zoom constantly surprises me. I always thought they were junk, like the digitech and boss crap from when I was a kid, but then stuff like that makes me think again.

It sort of reminds me of the Tascam cassette 4 track my school's music program got back when I was in High School. I don't know how many lunch breaks I spent learning to record drums (poorly) and bounce tracks so I could try and get my guitar, Bass and Vocals on there too...

If he wants to learn, tell him to seriously consider the Glyn Johns method for recording drums: http://homerecording.about.com/od/recordingtutorials/a/glyn_johns.htm. If it was good enough for Bonham...

Jacob

[djaaz]

The presonus package is a good product. Studio one is fantastic.
The presonus preamps are doing a good job as well. I hate the drivers though. You need a good machine to make it work.

To record a complete drumset i would try to find a firepod or a firestudio on ebay. Firepod is my best choice by far as the drivers are way better and the product are quite identic otherwise.  Firestudio, though, comes with studio one artist.

As far as the mics goes. We have in Europe these kinds of packs:

http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_dc4000_drummikrofonset.htm

They're doing the job good enough to fool any non trained professionals.


And then for voice and a lot of other stuff, this one is just a plain miracle for the price. Actually, it's just a miracle, period:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/the_tbone_sc450.htm

This one certainly exists in the US with another branding but i would not take the risk. If it helps, i would order and ship for you if the shop does do it.


I would add three mic stands on top of that.

[pietro_moog]

wow, big world the one you're talking about.

the first thing i wanna say is: don't push your nephew too much in a music career, let him choose and prospect him the bad sides (there's a lot of them) and what could go really wrong.

after that i can suggest you to hang around at gearslutz, there you can film zillions of problems and answers for your questions.

third, i say you/yr nephew need(s) a computer for sure, an audio interface, a pair of monitors,maybe headphones, a few mics.
even the minimum stuff will require big bucks, eventually you'll understand that, and a lot of efforts.
better stuff will cost you a lot more, but it will be certainly better, quality&sound-wise.

i have the home recording bug myself.
if the boy main instrument is the drums, i can say you are screwed. you'll need money.
but you can use a nice combination of brain and mics.
maybe a 4 mics setup like snare,BD,OHs  can do the trick.
actually i have an awesome minimal drum kit and 5 mics: snare, BD, floor tom, 2 mics as  room/ohs sound, they are AEA r48 and Gefell umt70s. my dynamics are beer m201, m88, sennheiser 421.
i can do everything with these and i have an enormous verity of sounds.
(yeah, big money, but i build my own studio preamps and compressor, so i save there somehow)

another VERY important thing is a good room sound. if you have a nice sounding room, you have half the work done.


you'll have your time learning all this stuff
good luck

[jtn191]

spend most of it on your interface/pres and mics. recording software is cheap and you can only polish crap so much 

[dwstanford]

If i were in your position, i would do this:

Software- Reaper- $60 (full featured daw, 60 bucks instead of 600)

I've used pro tools for years and i recently switched to reaper instead of upgrading to pro tools 10.  It's much lighter on your cpu and does pretty much everything pro tools can do.

Interface- $300 there are tons of good ones, including some mentioned earlier, but definitely get one with four good pre's on it. also look at the m-audio, focusrite, and motu stuff.   I'd spend about 300 or more on the interface/pre's and skip the 16 track recorder.  The converters on a good interface will kick the crap out of the converters on the multitrack, plus multitracks are pretty much going the way of the dodo.  Their only real strenght is portability, which is arguable considering most laptop setups these days. 

Mics-  $200  start him out with a few sm57's.  The unidyne is pretty much a 57 if you want to throw that in, but you can get 57's on ebay for 75 bucks used all day long.  Four can get you a really good drum sound.

Spend an extra fifty or so on a few cables.  Don't have to be the best.  Get four 20 footer's.

Eventually he will want some better overheads, room treatment, etc.  but he can get some great recordings with what ive mentioned.  I had alot less starting out and i was quite impressed with what came out of it.  It's really easy to get wrapped up in gear, but what matters is how you use it.  No matter what you have,

[timbo_93631]

  It's really easy to get wrapped up in gear, but what matters is how you use it.  No matter what you have,

Yeah, with the pedals this can happen so easily too.  I always find myself building some, weeding out what is too redundant or not used enough, and trimming the board back down.

Thanks for the good advice guys.  That Presonus Audiobox 44vsl is pretty slick.  youtube is great for checking this stuff out.  Must study much more before opening wallet.

[jkokura]

DW's advice is awesome.

The great thing about that Audiobox is that it comes with full software. I hear good things about reaper as well, but with many interfaces you don't even need to purchase a DAW.

I spent a week watching tutorials on using Studio One, and it's part of the reason I went with the Audiobox. I was also considering going with the Motu 4 Pre, but it was an extra $150 and I would still need a DAW. I bought the 44VSL used and got a used copy of the Studio One Pro for $400. I bet you could get a 44VSL with just the basic software for $200 used. Then I would go:

Used 44VSL: $200
Used Beta 52: $120
Used SM57: $80
Used MXL 603s pair: $80?
4x mic stands: $100
4x mic cables: $50
Cheap Recording headphones: $20
= $650

In the future he can upgrade the mics, get monitors, add to the mic collection, etc. but with that he could get rolling and learn a lot. Spend time and energy learning about mic placement, room treatment, and mixing skills. That will pay off later with better gear.

Jacob

[raulduke]

+1 on DW's advice.

I personally use Ableton Live, but I have heard a lot of good things about Reaper.

I use a Motu Audiointerface (this one: http://www.motu.com/products/motuaudio/ultralite-mk3 ) and absolutely love it.

My advice with recording gear would be to buy a few quality pieces (a few good mic's, good interface, good headphones etc.), rather than a lot of cheaper equipment. The cheaper equipment will only become redundant in the long run, and its resale value will not be very high.

You only really need four decent mic's for a decent drum recording; Led Zep four was all recorded using this method (Glyn Johns technique)!

Let us know what you decide on.

[slimtriggers]

+1 for Reaper.  I switched from Sonar to Reaper a few years ago and don't miss Sonar one bit.

This may be sacrilege, but I'd consider getting an electronic drum kit (V drums) for recording.  The samples available today are amazing.  He could just record straight midi, then replace the sounds with samples of his choice.  You could tweak forever, and there would be no need for multiple mics, pre's, phase considerations etc. etc.

[gtr2]

This ^^

I've always struggled to get good drums on anything I've recorded.  I recently got a Roland TD-4KX2-S V-series for under a grand.  They were bought by a guy who never even took them out of the box!  He had a couple other sets and never got to opening them up.  It was a quick Craigslist score.  They really sound incredible and the sensitivity/dynamics are really good.  I wouldn't be able to tell the difference on a recording.

I use an mbox.  Protools can be a pain to use though.  Been using garage band lately since I got a mac

There was a guy on the gearpage using just a interface with his iPad and the stuff sounded phenomenal. 

In my opinion material/composition trumps recording gear...

Here's a good article to read  http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2012/Apr/Studio_Legends_Alan_Parsons_on_Dark_Side_of_the_Moon.aspx

Josh

[jkokura]

Not that I advocate this product, but since you were/are considering it, check this out: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2887470-Zoom-R16-MINT

Jacob

[Om_Audio]

+1 on Reaper- great product, great price, great support community. Also: http://www.groove3.com/str/reaper-4-explained.html
C