Anyone else get the Covid Vaccine?

[Thewintersoldier]

And yeah, scientists historically aren't great communicators of their work. That's why people like Carl Sagan, Neil DeGrass Tyson, and (honestly) Bill Nye are such gems and so important. They have a way of discussions this stuff that is far more approachable than most scientist do. The forward to a brief history of time has some good insight into this stuff. Scientist want to show their data as empirical proof of things, but most people haven't learned the skills to process that data. Someone needs to distill the data into ideas that people can understand. That step gets overlooked.

That is a fair criticism. I would like to point out a few things which at least partially explain why scientists struggle to communicate to the lay public.

First, scientists live at the edge of the known and unknown, and often times, the truth isn't entirely understood by even themselves. Scientists get comfortable with uncertainty. Much of free time (which is small, see point #3 below) is spent saying, "I don't know. This is what I could do to know a little more about it though." "I don't know" is an entirely unsatisfying answer to a non-scientist.

Second, science is complicated. Ideally, the goal of all research is to distill a complicated concept into a small package that anyone can wrap their mind around. In some ways this is related to my first point; How simple something can be made is often limited by our own capabilities as scientists, as well as our current understanding of the topic. However, some concepts are just too complicated for a person to understand unless they are willing to invest the effort to learn. For example, you'll never understand thermodynamics unless you learn to use math as a language. Words will never explain that concept.

Finally, scientists are spread so incredibly thin that we don't have the time or will to communicate with lay people. A tiny fraction of a scientist's work actually involves doing science. Most of our time is spent teaching classes, writing (and reviewing) grants, writing/revising (and peer reviewing) manuscripts, serving on student and administrative committees, invited lectures, conferences, etc... It's death by a thousand paper cuts.

How do you fix the problem? More science public advocates like Sagan, NdGT, Nye, and EO Wilson, as well as better scientific education for lay people.

When I was in college to be a teacher I was science major and math minor. I took a lot of science classes and am in no way a scientist but I have never stopped learning or asking why. My wife and I watch science based programs and read publications as well. It's so frustrating to see people abandon it all together because they don't understand or it doesn't support their narrative. I don't know how people can be so complacent with being ignorant to everything or just claiming ignorance is bliss. I want to understand things, know how they work, or at the very least try to. I have people tell me it's too complicated or hard. When I hear that this always pops in my head...

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[DLW]

When I was in college to be a teacher I was science major and math minor. I took a lot of science classes and am in no way a scientist but I have never stopped learning or asking why. My wife and I watch science based programs and read publications as well. It's so frustrating to see people abandon it all together because they don't understand or it doesn't support their narrative. I don't know how people can be so complacent with being ignorant to everything or just claiming ignorance is bliss. I want to understand things, know how they work, or at the very least try to. I have people tell me it's too complicated or hard.

With that curiosity and willingness to learn, I'd wager you have a well above average understanding of science. Unfortunately, you can't really understand that natural world without that ethos.

You touch on another point that I wish I would have made earlier... many people assume being a scientist solely entails having  encyclopedic knowledge in a narrow field. The truth is that science is not simply a body of facts; rather, it is a way of observing, thinking logically, and recognizing/limiting bias. I wish more people appreciated that aspect of science, because everyone can benefit from at least partially incorporating these behaviors in their life.

I'll step off my soapbox. I think Matosphere nailed it. I'm preaching to the choir on these boards. I seems like most of the folks around here are reasonable, curious, and dedicated to their craft...in other words, scientists

[dan.schumaker]

First time I've seen that, I'm definitely using it in the future 

[jimilee]

First time I've seen that, I'm definitely using it in the future 

Bwahahahaha! I'm a bass player, this is the only thing I got out of this thread.


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[alanp]

I highly recommend Pratchett, Cohen, and Stewart's _Science of Discworld 2: The Globe_ -- at one point, the faculty of Unseen University are trying to understand what this "psyense" nonsense is, as explained by Hex.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Science_of_Discworld_II:_The_Globe

[EBK]

I still have concerns about the vaccines that I am positive could be addressed if I knew what to read.  In other words, my concerns are based only on what I personally don't know yet rather than on any wild conspiracy theories and the like.  I'll list a few, and if anyone with appropriate knowledge wants to tell me everything is fine, I will be satisfied. 

1)  Many people who are infected by COVID-19 are asymptomatic.  Is it possible that the vaccine could fail to produce the desired immune system response in such people.  That is, assuming their cells produce harmless spiky crowns as specified by the mRNA, might their immune system simply ignore them?

2)  What mechanism eventually stops my cells from producing those spiky crowns?  Does the vaccine change the cells or simply give them one-time-use instructions?

3)  Do we need more long term data to show the vaccine is safe?  This is very new technology (mRNA vaccines have never been rolled out before). I'm not sure how to best refine this question, so I will leave it vague for now.  I'm happy so many others are getting vaccinated first.  I am sure my family will eventually have an opportunity to get the shots, and I want to confidently, rather than nervously, roll up my sleeve.

I hope this post makes sense.  Just asking for info without any confrontational agenda here.   

[DLW]

1)  Many people who are infected by COVID-19 are asymptomatic.  Is it possible that the vaccine could fail to produce the desired immune system response in such people.  That is, assuming their cells produce harmless spiky crowns as specified by the mRNA, might their immune system simply ignore them?

This is a good point. I don't think we know anything about how people will respond to the vaccine that have been previous infected with the virus. I'm pretty sure these people were excluded from the initial trials and are too far down the cue to have been vaccinated en masse to study.

Best case scenario, the vaccine improves upon natural immunity by prolonging immune memory. Worst case, the vaccine reprograms natural immunity and turns a normally well tolerated response into a harmful one. My professional opinion is the former is highly likely, while the latter is not without precedence (albeit one vaccine in the history of vaccination).

We'll know the answer to this question in due time.

2)  What mechanism eventually stops my cells from producing those spiky crowns?  Does the vaccine change the cells or simply give them one-time-use instructions?

It should be noted that this question refers to only one (mRNA) of the many formulation of the COV2 vaccine. If the novelty mRNA vaccine is a major hang up for you, you have access to more traditional forms of the vaccine (e.g. Astrozenaca).

The reason spike proteins won't stick around forever is due to the instability of RNA. In fact, RNA is one of, if not the most highly unstable biomolecules. Thinking about this from the perspective of the central dogma of biology is probably the easiest way to understand why RNA is so unstable. DNA is trascribed into RNA, and RNA is translated into protein. In other words, RNA is an intermediate step between gene blueprints (DNA) and the functional form of a gene (protein). This affords a powerful opportunity for RNA to regulate protein production through a variety of means that hinge on the stability of RNA. Instability is the default, and stabilizing RNA is an active process. Thus, RNA is quickly degraded in the absence of a cell's highly coordinate attempt to stabilize it.

3)  Do we need more long term data to show the vaccine is safe?  This is very new technology (mRNA vaccines have never been rolled out before). I'm not sure how to best refine this question, so I will leave it vague for now.  I'm happy so many others are getting vaccinated first.  I am sure my family will eventually have an opportunity to get the shots, and I want to confidently, rather than nervously, roll up my sleeve.

While the mRNA vaccines are new, vaccination is not. There are common safety concerns that usually appear shortly after vaccination and a few other that develop upon exposure to the natural pathogen. There are virtually zero safety concerns that arise long after vaccination.

The trials for both the mRNA vaccines were quite large (10,000s of people). There were no serious side effects reported in both trials. Likewise, the fact that independent trials, utilizing a similar vaccine formulation, found each vaccine to be safe and effective is very reassuring. Of course, larger sample sizes are always better. An additional 7 million people have received the vaccine and there have only been a small handful of easily treatable reactions to the vaccine. Safety concerns with the COV2 vaccines are vanishing with every day.

[EBK]

Thank you!  I'm sure I will still have more questions, but that helps with the biggest ones I had.

[Thewintersoldier]

Quick update, my wife and mom both got the second dose of the pfizer vaccine Monday. Both had just soreness in the arm and fatigue for a couple days but nothing serious or prolonged. I get my second dose of the moderna vaccine this coming Monday so I will let you know how that goes later next week. Knowing that there essentially wasn't a vaccine plan or program and the shortages we are facing I consider myself lucky that I am able to get it as a hospital employee, even if I am around covid patients. I hope everyone who wants it is able to get it as soon as possible. Stay safe and healthy everyone.

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[Govmnt_Lacky]

Down here in MD, it is a wreck!

20 and 30 something teachers were able to get the vaccine even though schools have been shut down for months and learning has been completely virtual BUT, elderly people (my mother included) even those with pre-existing conditions are still on a waiting list.

Its pretty sad... 

[gordo]

IL not doing too much better.  My wife gets her 2nd Moderna next week.  She was REALLY sick from the first shot but she reacts very poorly to vaccines in general so she's not a good benchmark.  Not stopping her from getting the followup but she'll plan on being down for a few days.

I'm in Group 2 so likely won't get anywhere near a needle till early summer.  I've had the virus so with any luck I'm covered till at least then anyway.

[DLW]

Down here in MD, it is a wreck!

20 and 30 something teachers were able to get the vaccine even though schools have been shut down for months and learning has been completely virtual BUT, elderly people (my mother included) even those with pre-existing conditions are still on a waiting list.

Its pretty sad... 

Are you sure you're getting the correct information? It seems that educators and 65+ are both in category 1c in MD and both groups are currently able to receive vaccinations pending availability.
https://covidlink.maryland.gov/content/vaccine/

Also, I'm not sure that educators are the ones to villainize in this plan. Vaccination is a prerequisite to getting schools open again. I would've picked inmates to draw ire, but that's just me... https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/12/08/covid-vaccination-plans/

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Are you sure you're getting the correct information? It seems that educators and 65+ are both in category 1c in MD and both groups are currently able to receive vaccinations pending availability.
https://covidlink.maryland.gov/content/vaccine/

Also, I'm not sure that educators are the ones to villainize in this plan. Vaccination is a prerequisite to getting schools open again. I would've picked inmates to draw ire, but that's just me... https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/12/08/covid-vaccination-plans/

Educators got their vaccines 3 weeks ago. They were prioritized BEFORE elderly.

And yes.. I am sure as I have called the local Health department 3 times in the last 2 weeks and have been told that we are on a wait.

[eh là bas ma]

I'm old school.  I think the government wants to get society functioning again and I think doctors, in general, want people to be healthy and live.  I'm willing to have some trust in the process.  My wife is getting first dose of the vaccine this week.  I'll take it as soon as it is available.

With respect, that's not old school, that's naiveté, with a pinch of blindness.
I've been watching "the Vietnam War" by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick lately. I figure "old school" is quite subsersive and violent from what I can learn about the US in those days. We could use some of that ! Anti-communist ideologists and politicians had to fight two wars : the Vietnam and their own people, at home.

Governments call us "human resources" with few value. Doctors kill themselves or protest and get beaten by "police" (who wants to join them today, I mean the police ?) in the streets  because governments and industry won't let them get people healthy and living : how do you want capitalism and its brutality to thrive and prosper, if people are ok, healthy, and think by themselves ? This would be bad for business, really.

To paraphrase this... "We shouldn't trust science. Instead, we should pick the parts of science that support our preconceived opinions and ignore the rest. Oh, and confirmation bias is a conspiracy theory."

Science has always been hijacked by people with political or financial agendas. Once we justified slavery with science, segregation, etc. all that based on so-called "science". Do you know the "Atomic Red" ? Uranium lipstick from the late 1940's ! I guess people can be dead wrong...

"Conspiracy theory" is  a concept first publicized and used after WW2,  as an intellectual weapon by those fighting against former collaborationists and other fascistoid associations, willing to deny genocide during WW2. Capitalism and its friends are well-known for being able to promptly turn every weapon against their opponents : Now it's a common way to shut down criticism about everything, firing back alltogether honnest and legitimate concerns and childish phantasies and ghosts . Please don't go "Godwin-point " on me : this is an other way to kill democratic and progressist thinking, by destroying the one minimum point of agreement, from which people can compare with politics they are suffering today. Remember Rage Against the Machine ? "You got a bullet in your Head" ? Is that old school now ? I think so.


Looks like daily news aren't so good with this "variants" thing. Why Pfeizer and Moderna want every single governments to write into a bill of law that they won't be held responsible for any trouble with their fine vaccines ?

[matmosphere]

Are you sure you're getting the correct information? It seems that educators and 65+ are both in category 1c in MD and both groups are currently able to receive vaccinations pending availability.
https://covidlink.maryland.gov/content/vaccine/

Also, I'm not sure that educators are the ones to villainize in this plan. Vaccination is a prerequisite to getting schools open again. I would've picked inmates to draw ire, but that's just me... https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/12/08/covid-vaccination-plans/

Educators got their vaccines 3 weeks ago. They were prioritized BEFORE elderly.

And yes.. I am sure as I have called the local Health department 3 times in the last 2 weeks and have been told that we are on a wait.

The whole rollout of the vaccine was really poorly managed. I'm really hopeful that changes quickly. I don't blame them for doing teachers first. It makes sense, people really want their kids back in school, but at the same time I'd love to see my in-laws get vaccinate as soon as possible. All I can say is that I don't want to be the person that has to make those calls. That would be tough.

I also think it would be naive to think some people and industries aren't finding creative ways to jump to the front of the line.

Saw a pic on IG of an old friend who runs a bar getting the vaccine, he's maybe 40. Don't know how that happened, I think his wife works in healthcare, so maybe cause they live together. But either way, seems like there may not be definitive rules for this stuff.

I hope that, with these new variants starting to spread, that the pace of vaccination really picks up.


On a side note, somebody came out to look at a broke dryer at my house today, the irony of watching him put those little plastic covers on his shoes while he only had his mask over his mouth was not lost on me at all. {facepalm} I mean I guess my floors aren't any dirtier than they were before, right?