Gibson files Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection

[pickdropper]

What guitar companies do you feel do a good job of pricing without trading excessively on their name?  Are any of them US built guitars?

I want to say Martin.  They have a broad spectrum of product ranges with prices that seem to be very closely tied to materials, functional design features, and ornamentation.  Nearly all of their stuff is made in the US.  One exception that springs to mind is their backpacker guitars, which just bear the name but are made in Malaysia, I think....

I quite like Martin, but their pricing is Gibson.  There really isn't a huge difference in pricing between a D18 and a J-45.  I generally prefer Martin to Gibson acoustics, but the higher end Martins and Gibsons are both very expensive.  I guess I'm unclear what makes the Martin pricing better than Gibson's.  It's totally possible there's something I'm missing.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

What guitar companies do you feel do a good job of pricing without trading excessively on their name?  Are any of them US built guitars?

Schecter and Ibanez come to mind immediately.

With regards to PRS. I suppose my opinion is influenced by the fact that they do not make lefty axes in their "reasonably priced" lines. Hopefully, that will change soon. If I want a new PRS, it is $3-4K minimum 

[pickdropper]

What guitar companies do you feel do a good job of pricing without trading excessively on their name?  Are any of them US built guitars?

Schecter and Ibanez come to mind immediately.

With regards to PRS. I suppose my opinion is influenced by the fact that they do not make lefty axes in their "reasonably priced" lines. Hopefully, that will change soon. If I want a new PRS, it is $3-4K minimum 

Schecter and Ibanez both make very nice guitars, but very little of it (if any these days) is produced in the US, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison, is it?

And Ibanez has been moving a lot of production to Indonesia to keep costs down.  There's nothing inherently wrong with that, but they are offshoring to reduce pricing whereas companies that are trying to build in America are raising prices.  I have zero issue with import guitars that are made well, but if one cares about USA made guitars, it's tough to keep the price really low.  Both Gibson and Fender have had some low cost USA made offerings that are likely much lower margin than what Ibanez and Schecter are running at, although that is speculation on my part.

As far as PRS, I get that.  I've never understood why they've paid so little attention to lefties.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Schecter and Ibanez both make very nice guitars, but very little of it (if any these days) is produced in the US, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison, is it?

My answer was focused more on the name trading question.

That being said, I still do not get the vast difference in pricing. Quality guitar makers can offer comparable guitars for 1/4 to 1/3 of the price. Is it really that much more expensive to have the "Made in the USA" label?

Not trying to be obtuse. Just trying to understand the huge pricing differences.

[pickdropper]

Schecter and Ibanez both make very nice guitars, but very little of it (if any these days) is produced in the US, so it's not really an apples to apples comparison, is it?

My answer was focused more on the name trading question.

That being said, I still do not get the vast difference in pricing. Quality guitar makers can offer comparable guitars for 1/4 to 1/3 of the price. Is it really that much more expensive to have the "Made in the USA" label?

Not trying to be obtuse. Just trying to understand the huge pricing differences.

It's a really good question, actually.  I don't think you're being obtuse at all.  I don't claim to be an expert on guitar manufacturing overseas, although I do have experience setting up production in various countries (US and Asia included).

Unfortunately, I think it's more complicated than simply labor X here vs. labor Y there.  There are multiple factors at play:

1.) Labor cost
2.) Material cost
3.) Construction style
4.) Regulatory costs

A lot of China and Indonesia built guitars not only have cheaper labor cost, but the materials are different and the construction is different as well.  For example, if you compare an Epiphone Les Paul vs. a Gibson Les Paul (or a PRS SE vs. a Core PRS) you'll find that the top is veneered instead of a two-piece slab of maple.  Often the body wood uses a cheaper alternative to Mahogany.  Not necessarily a bad thing, but it's different and less expensive.  The hardware is often different as well.  In some cases (like Gibson), they shoot Nitro in the US, but I believe they shoot Poly overseas (at least for some models).

The interesting thing is when somebody attempts to build something in China (or other country) with a reduced labor rate.  Eastman, who was brought up earlier in the thread, is doing some of this, although they are getting increasingly expensive as the labor rates in China increase.  The model I linked to earlier used higher end materials and was $2300, which is getting closer to American made set-neck pricing. 

An interesting comparison is actually Ibanez, if you look at their John Schofield semi-hollowbody signature guitars.  The Japan-made JS100 clocks in at $2799, while the China version is $1099.  Quite a significant difference for two guitars that are fundamentally quiet similar.  The Japan one has different pickups, bridge, nut, fretboard radius and a one-piece neck (instead of 3).  The labor is also significantly higher in Japan than China.  Does that make it worth $1700 more?  Folks that love them feel the attention to detail is better out of Japan, but others are OK with the cheaper model.  In the end, it really depends on what's important to the buyer.  I do think Ibanez has generally very good quality control regardless of where they are built and their overall success reflects that.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/compare.php?items=(JSM100VT,JSM10VYS)

Most of the Asian made guitars have a combination of cheaper labor, less expensive materials and less expensive parts simply because that is what the market will bear.  It'll be interesting to see what happens as more guitars are built in China with top-shelf parts.  There's really no reason China can't have equivalently good luthiers, but some company is going to have to decide that it's worth doing it that way.  They are also likely going to have to pay a higher labor cost to retain workers, which is a significant problem in the coastal cities of China, where employee turnover is significant.  There's a lot more to this discussion, but this is already an incredibly long-winded response.

[Bio77]

Bean....................you left the door open and some bots got in

[madbean]

Bean....................you left the door open and some bots got in

THX, deleted

[Willybomb]

I'm really curious about Fender.  They've done a better job of appealing to the various age groups, but I don't have a clear picture of how healthy they are.

Fender are weird, man.  While they do have guitars at every price point:
- They absolutely refuse to try and replicate the value for money you can get from other brands for less money. 
- The MIM Player Plus is close to US Performer prices but is better spec'd but lack the classic colour options.
- Top line Squiers are getting close to MIM Player prices
- They refuse to do anything innovative with the core Fender line until you get to the more expensive models (and even then, it's taken how long for them to do a contoured heel?) and leave the interesting/modern stuff to either Squier or their acquisitioned off Fender brands (historically - Heartfield, Squier, HM, and now Charvel and Jackson).  I know they've done some wackier stuff in the past, but clearly they didn't last.

Anyway, I got my Fender because I wanted a FENDER.  You don't buy one for the bang for buck...

[pickdropper]

Bean....................you left the door open and some bots got in

THX, deleted

I came after the deletions.  For a second there, I thought he was talking about me.

[Bio77]

Bean....................you left the door open and some bots got in

THX, deleted

I came after the deletions.  For a second there, I thought he was talking about me.

Lol.  Well, your builds are rather precise....

No, they were pro-China bots.  Advance artificial intelligence that can provide balance to negative sentiment on internet forums in a mere 3 years time