Gibson files Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection

[TheDude]

Let's also not forget about companies like Warmoth. Why spend around $3k for a stock Gibson when I can spend around $3.5-4k for a totally custom build? As far as buying options go for the guitar, there's not much Gibson can so to remain a power without significantly adjusting their process - whether its up the quality, lower the price, etc. Something needs to be done.

As far as rock and guitar music dying, that is extremely far from true. Yes, it is no longer mainstream, and we can only guess as to what could bring it back to that level, but at the same time, 'mainstream' music fans make up a much smaller portion of all music fans than ever simply because technology allows us to find and enjoy whatever we choose. In addition, I think metal is much more mainstream than has been given credit so far in this discussion. Lots of boys pick up the guitar wanting to be a shredder rather than a rocker.

If mainstream is your concern, then you have to find a way to create sex and/or danger icons in rock because, females aged 14-28ish rule the industry. Let's face it, boys of that age who aren't willing to do their own thing are always going to follow the where the girls are. Anyone younger doesn't have the money to spend on music and musicians, and anyone older tends to be 'smarter' with their money, however you wish to define that. And as Alanp stated, solo artists are vastly easier to control, letting them come off as sexy or dangerous, but disposing of them when they become an actual problem.

Overall, I think the idea that guitar is dying is vastly blown out of proportion. Will rock ever get back to its heyday? Unlikely, but I don't know if that's the worst thing. I think what's note important is that it finds, and continues longevity as a popular genre, despite not being THE most popular. Disco is dead as a doornail, but rockers are still rollin along, no longer the tops of the tops, but certainly not out of the peripherals. And that's just fine. As long as teens are still forming bands and new rock is still being pumped out, I think the genre has a long future left ahead of it.

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[culturejam]

Why spend around $3k for a stock Gibson when I can spend around $3.5-4k for a totally custom build?

Here are a few reasons I can think of right now:

1) I can get the Gibson on 0% credit and pay it off over 4 years (if that long is needed), which is ~ $62 / month.

2) The Gibson is already completely assembled. If I'm gonna fork over $3k - $4k, I don't want a kit, I want a guitar put together by somebody who knows a lot more about luthiery than me.

3) No set necks available with Warmoth. At least not that I've seen, although I'll admit it's been a while since I checked out their site.


I understand where you're coming from, but it's not really an apples:apples comparison. At least not in my opinion.

[TheDude]

I understand where you're coming from, but it's not really an apples:apples comparison. At least not in my opinion.

Oh I fully agree its not an apples to apples comparison, and those are all good points you make there.

I guess to me, its just that if I'm going to spend at least $3k+ on a guitar, I much rather save up another few hundred and have it customized to my specs rather than something stock. The benefits just seem to outweigh the cost increase at that point, though I admit that's a completely subjective opinion. I don't mind a cheaper guitar that I have to battle a little bit with, but if I'm going to go for something that's supposed to be better, I'd prefer it to be better in my own image. Again, a fully subjective opinion though.


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[culturejam]

Again, a fully subjective opinion though.

Totally agree, and I respect your view.

And frankly, I wouldn't spend $3k+ on a brand new Gibson either. If buying new again, i'd probably look for a previous year new old-stock for several hundred less. The only Gibson I've bought new was exactly that (closeout from the year before).

[jimilee]

Again, a fully subjective opinion though.

Totally agree, and I respect your view.

And frankly, I wouldn't spend $3k+ on a brand new Gibson either. If buying new again, i'd probably look for a previous year new old-stock for several hundred less. The only Gibson I've bought new was exactly that (closeout from the year before).

Agreed. I'm not sure that if I did spend 3k on a les Paul, I should be playing for money, and I know I wouldn't take a 3k les Paul to a bar gig. So that begs the question, where are you playing your 3k les Paul?


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[culturejam]

So that begs the question, where are you playing your 3k les Paul?

Madison Square Bedroom! 

[EBRAddict]

The main reason I wouldn't buy a $3k guitar is that I am old enough to realize it won't make me sound any better than a $500 guitar. 

[Fitzsimmons]

The main reason I prefer these weight loss pills for men and wouldn't buy a $3k guitar is that I am old enough to realize it won't make me sound any better than a $500 guitar. 

Man, that's some hard truth right there, EBRAddict. Logic tends to be a party pooper doesn't it lol? Anyway, I was shocked to hear that they filed for Chapter 11. Were they burning the money over there at Gibson or something?

[Rockhorst]

3) No set necks available with Warmoth. At least not that I've seen, although I'll admit it's been a while since I checked out their site.

That's just Warmoth though. Check out Precision Guitar kits. Even if you go nuts with stuff like 3A Flame, you'll be at 50% - 70% of the price of a top of the line standard. But then you do need to be a bit confident you can do assembly and setup of course.

Personally I have guitars on both end of the spectrum. When I was 15 years younger I spent a heap on a PRS and later used this as trade in on a Gibson R8. Happy to have it, but it rarily exits its case. I will probably never spend that much on a guitar ever again. I'm also very surprised at how much prices have increased both at Fender and Gibson over the past 4 or 5 years. Fender Am Std has gone up about $500 in 5 years time. At the same time, at least here in the Netherlands, the 2nd hand market is pretty dead. It's very hard to sell (could be because of the crisis), which means as a buyer you can get some crazy deals.

And it's definitely true: a 5k USA guitar won't make you a better player compared to a $500 guitar from Korea with maybe a pickup swap.

[pickdropper]

Reverb speculates about how this filing will impact the used Gibson market:
https://reverb.com/news/how-will-the-gibsons-bankruptcy-affect-used-gibson-prices

Unless I missed it, they skipped over the main reason why Gibson used prices may decline: Gibson has been very popular with an aging demographic that is slowly exiting the guitar buying market.  This may affect the high dollar reissues more than their standard line, but they've sold an awful lot of Les Pauls to aging boomers whose idols played them.  I'm not convinced the younger generation is going to abandon guitar (like some pundits), but I'm curious if they'll throw big dollars at accurate replicas.

[pickdropper]

Let's also not forget about companies like Warmoth. Why spend around $3k for a stock Gibson when I can spend around $3.5-4k for a totally custom build? As far as buying options go for the guitar, there's not much Gibson can so to remain a power without significantly adjusting their process - whether its up the quality, lower the price, etc. Something needs to be done.

As somebody who owns a handful of partscasters with really good parts, I'm a huge fan of this approach.  I also don't think it's a comparable substitution for buying a set neck Gibson.  Warmoth/Musikraft/Guitar Mill/USACG/BGP are really going after the buyer who wants the customization of a Fender custom shop bolt-on but wants to pay closer to an American Strat/Tele price.

The other thing that pushes people off about partscasters is that the resale value is simply awful.  I love all of my partscasters, but they are worth more as parts than as a completed instrument.  Most branded instruments hold their value much better, which is appealing to those who like to buy and sell.  I still think it's worth doing partscaster builds, but they aren't for everybody.

Btw, how are you spec'ing your Warmoth builds so they cost $3k+?  That's gotta be a hell of a build.

[pickdropper]

True "Gibson" guitars are still manufactured at 225 Parsons Street, Kalamazoo, Michagan under the brand name Heritage. If you want a "Gibson", that is what you will buy, a Heritage guitar. The pathetic corporate knock-offs that have been carrying the Gibson name for the last 33 years are not true Gibsons. None of those guitars have shared a workbench that once held a '58 Burst, but Heritage guitars do. No, there will be no comeback for Gibson. It's been gone since 1984.
1993 Heritage H150 Quilted Burst...$1,700...(they don't get the credit they deserve; how much would Gibson charge for a guitar like this??).

Heritage makes some nice guitars, but I don't think they are particularly better than what's going out of Gibson these days.  A few of my friends are Heritage fans and I have a local dealer, so I've played a lot of them.  They are nice, but simply another choice. 

Heritage is also going through massive changes right now that may prove more significant than the Gibson transition, although time will tell.  They just fired a good portion of their old luthiers (and others quit out of protest).  The have gotten rid of most of the customization (at least for now) and many of the model offerings.  The owners are clearly trying to streamline and optimize their line in an attempt to improve profitability. 

https://bluegrasstoday.com/changes-at-heritage-guitar-roils-staff-luthiers/

[TheDude]

The other thing that pushes people off about partscasters is that the resale value is simply awful.  I love all of my partscasters, but they are worth more as parts than as a completed instrument.  Most branded instruments hold their value much better, which is appealing to those who like to buy and sell.  I still think it's worth doing partscaster builds, but they aren't for everybody.

I truly don't understand the whole buy, sell, buy, sell, buy cycle. I know some people do, and that's fine, but I cringe at the idea of having to find a buyer for something I paid over $500 for simply because I don't want that thing anymore. Like damn, I really screwed the pooch if I find myself in that spot.

Btw, how are you spec'ing your Warmoth builds so they cost $3k+?  That's gotta be a hell of a build.

I haven't done this to date, but then I haven't spent over $1200 on a guitar yet, even after upgrades, so I guess that makes me cheap to some, haha. But if I am gonna spend $3k I'm going all out! Mahogany chambered Tele with a Koa top, clear coat, koa neck with a ziricote fretboard, turquoise dot inlays.... To me $3k is too much of an investment into an instrument to not make it MINE.

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[lars]

Heritage makes some nice guitars, but I don't think they are particularly better than what's going out of Gibson these days.  A few of my friends are Heritage fans and I have a local dealer, so I've played a lot of them.  They are nice, but simply another choice. 

Heritage is also going through massive changes right now that may prove more significant than the Gibson transition, although time will tell.  They just fired a good portion of their old luthiers (and others quit out of protest).  The have gotten rid of most of the customization (at least for now) and many of the model offerings.  The owners are clearly trying to streamline and optimize their line in an attempt to improve profitability. 

https://bluegrasstoday.com/changes-at-heritage-guitar-roils-staff-luthiers/

Thanks for the info. It looks like overall, any of the higher-priced old school brands are gonna go the way of the dinosaur fairly soon. And yes, one of the big reasons is that the devotion and support for USA made Fenders and Gibsons, etc, is getting old and dying out. I think as far as a brand to watch that really has a pulse on the market is Eastwood Guitars. They've focused in on the more oddball, unique, vintage-inspired guitars that are very popular today, especially with the next generation of players. Eastwood also hits a lower price point that is above "entry-level", but not "status symbol", which is the hot market right now. If I had 3K to spend on new guitars, I would much rather buy 4 different models of Eastwood guitars to cover a lot of ground, rather than dump it all on one Les Paul or 335.

[somnif]

If I had 3k, I'd get a nice fender offset (Jazzmaster or Jaguar, haven't decided which), a higher end Epiphone hollow body, and something like a baritone or a Bass VI for some fun.

And with the 1000 I had left over, I'd pay rent for a couple months.