The Last Jedi

[matmosphere]

the novilization of TFA does a decent job of explaining the reisistance/ First Order dynamic.

I'm curious what got changed in TLJ after Carrie Fisher died. I feel like the whole beginning battle would have fit better at the end of the movie. A lot of it felt like a climax not an intro.  And being at the end of the movie they could have avoided giving a new crazy force power to somebody who hasn't been trained as a Jedi.

[Rockhorst]

mremic01 and matmosphere are right on the money, as far as I'm concerned. I will go see it a second time (never done that with any movie), because I want to go see it in 2D, as not to be stupified by IMAX 3D...

[Muadzin]

They can still do that and have a story that makes sense.

It says Star Wars on it, so people will go see it and buy the toys. But better movies could have been made with the same amount of effort, which is the reason these movies are so frustrating.

Of course they could have done so. I've read fan fiction that was better written then TFA. I've written better fan fiction then the last Star Wars movies. Thing is though, a fan fic writer generally works alone. The failing or success of his or her story is theirs alone. With SW there are an infinite number of drafts of the script, with an infinite number of people getting involved with the rewrites. For various reasons. In the end maybe the biggest surprise is not why most movies have bland mediocre stories, but why occasionally a movie with a good story manages to sneak past the system.

the novilization of TFA does a decent job of explaining the reisistance/ First Order dynamic.

Novilizations always tend to do a better job at explaining things that movies left unanswered. Probably because the writers themselves feel the need to make sense of the plotholes. And unlike with movie scripts there's not a whole lot of interference of movie execs to muck things up.

I'm curious what got changed in TLJ after Carrie Fisher died. I feel like the whole beginning battle would have fit better at the end of the movie. A lot of it felt like a climax not an intro.  And being at the end of the movie they could have avoided giving a new crazy force power to somebody who hasn't been trained as a Jedi.

Considering TFA that seems to be a theme with these movies. Crazy Force powers for everyone! No need to go to Dagobah and collect 200 Jedi points!

[mremic01]

Considering TFA that seems to be a theme with these movies. Crazy Force powers for everyone! No need to go to Dagobah and collect 200 Jedi points!

I imagine this is an issue with how the writers want to present the Force to the audience. If you're the writer, and you know that the audience has seen what's possible with the Force by watching Luke develop, you have two basic choices: show the audience yet another character starting from nothing and learning about Force over time (something they've already seen), or supercharge the new character so that you can show new things being done right away, even if it doesn't make sense within the story. This picks up where we left off with the Force so we don't have to retread narrative ground. For TFA and TLJ, they chose the latter.

Could they have done something more nuanced that accomplishes both? Definitely. We could have seen Rey learning from scratch, but beginner-level Force skills that we haven't seen before. But that would take some thought. Thought that distracts from X-Wings going pew pew.
 

[jimilee]

You get the force, you get the force, you get the force, everyone gets the force!!!!


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[alanp]

Can I have the sword skills of Inigo Montoya, instead? (Inigo because a touch of alcoholism is probably more acceptable, socially, than becoming a pirate (aka seafaring-murderous-thief.))

[midwayfair]

We saw it last night. I liked it, had fun watching it, and would watch it again if it was on, which is how I feel about everything so far but the prequels.

Lexa commented that she thought it was too funny and the new movies lack some gravitas. I do agree with that criticism to some extent, but I laughed at the one-liners and clapped during the last light saber battle.

My only real criticism is a structural one. One of the neat things about Lucas's original trilogies for Star Wars and Indiana Jones was that in addition to paying homage to old series -- which, by the way, are literally nothing but the equivalent of X-wings going pew-pew -- they used the structure of the serials as well. Pay attention to how much time is spent on, essentially, the same location. Modern narrative structure had already eschewed this by the time those movies were released, but it's actually (I think) an important part of their charm. So despite the new movies doing their best attempt to manipulate or rehash the older plots, they feel like watching a different type of movie.

What I really don't understand is everyone arguing about the logic of space wizards using space magic in any of the movies. The force has never been anything but a plot device for any character, so IMO unless you're specifically told in-universe by scrolling text that something is impossible, it's fair game, just like each new Harry Potter book was allowed to get a new spell or two that may have neatly solved some other problem the characters had in a previous novel. It's magic. You can either be sour about not getting what you personally want the story to be, or you can turn off your brain and have fun. And it might do to remember that it doesn't matter how much eastern philosophy and Joseph Campbell people want to project on them, that's all the movies were ever supposed to be: a love letter to watching star ships go pew pew pew. I think Abrams actually gets that, even if he decided to present the stories in a structure that I wouldn't have preferred if I had my druthers.

[Willybomb]

It's interesting watching the progression of the lightsabre fights.  ANH was really just a kendo fight with glowing sticks and an old man trying to spin.  Luke's beatdown of Vader in ROTJ is probably a favourite.  The prequel trilogy are too flashy, imo.

The Vader corridor rampage in Rogue One was worth the price of admission, and the fight in TLJ was great.

[Freppo]

I really enjoyed TLJ. Watched it twice already

IMO a better movie than the Force Awakens, which was too much of a rehash of A New Hope (which I didn't mind that much being the first movie to reboot the franchise and all, but a new death star? come on...).

TLJ has many similarities to The Empire Strikes Back aswell, but at least it's much more subtle, and the storyline is somewhat original. It could have been better. I didn't like the whole casino-world scene(s) and some of the comic relief didn't work for me, but overall I think it's a good movie.

I loved the lightsaber fights. Great choreography without being over the top.

*NERD ALERT!* Me and a couple of friends made a couple of fan films many years ago for the annual theforce.net lightsaber choreography contest. I was behind the camera. We ended up first place in 2007 and second place in 2005 (out of 10-15 groups of contestants from all over the world) 

[culturejam]

I really enjoyed TLJ. Watched it twice already

IMO a better movie than the Force Awakens, which was too much of a rehash of A New Hope (which I didn't mind that much being the first movie to reboot the franchise and all, but a new death star? come on...).

TLJ has many similarities to The Empire Strikes Back aswell, but at least it's much more subtle, and the storyline is somewhat original. It could have been better. I didn't like the whole casino-world scene(s) and some of the comic relief didn't work for me, but overall I think it's a good movie.

I pretty much agree with all of this.

I thought it was a very good movie overall. There was maybe a little too much humor, but all of it was actually funny, so it's excusable. I also agree it had several echoes of Empire, but they weren't overkill. Empire was the best movie of the bunch, so there are worse films to reference. And the plot went places I didn't expect, which is a major improvement from the last 4 Episode films (excluding Rogue One).

TLJ was much better than TFA, in my opinion. And how can a Bencio Del Toro cameo be wrong?

[nzCdog]

Finally saw this on Saturday night... (almost had the theatre to ourselves, it was perfect!) 

I liked it, beautiful cinematography and digital effects.  Well, the bar is pretty high, but I thought the previous release TLJ was a better film overall (didn't really like Rogue One).  However, TLJ was too long for me, the casino planet scene was unnecessary imho.  Some of the dialogue (sarcasm) was a little surprising, funny but not what I'd come to expect from Star Wars.  The cute critters were cool.  Also recurring themes from the original films were an interesting talking point after the movie.  Overall a great watch.

*NERD ALERT!* Me and a couple of friends made a couple of fan films many years ago for the annual theforce.net lightsaber choreography contest. I was behind the camera. We ended up first place in 2007 and second place in 2005 (out of 10-15 groups of contestants from all over the world) 

This is epic!  Great job putting these together Freppo!

[jposega]

It's interesting watching the progression of the lightsabre fights.  ANH was really just a kendo fight with glowing sticks and an old man trying to spin.  Luke's beatdown of Vader in ROTJ is probably a favourite.  The prequel trilogy are too flashy, imo.

The Vader corridor rampage in Rogue One was worth the price of admission, and the fight in TLJ was great.

The change in fighting styles can be explained by the fact that Kenobi was old and couldn't fight like he used to, and Luke never had anyone to teach him the fancy stuff. It actually makes sense.

Vader in R1 is something I want to see a whole lot of. The fight in TLJ was excellent, but I wish there'd been an actual saber-on-saber fight. But I didn't even realize it was absent from the film until I got home.

[culturejam]

[quote  ;Dauthor=jposega link=topic=26532.msg262967#msg262967 date=1514914121]
Vader in R1 is something I want to see a whole lot of.[/quote]

Watching him wreck shop on that rebel ship was mind-blowing.

[juansolo]

That's the first time I've ever thought the Jedi were more than just laser sword wielding magicians. Vader in that scene was just plain terrifying. As he should be to non force users.

[matmosphere]

That's the first time I've ever thought the Jedi were more than just laser sword wielding magicians. Vader in that scene was just plain terrifying. As he should be to non force users.

As he should be to the movie going public in general. But then nobody wants to buy the toy of the bad guy.

The fight in TLJ was excellent, but I wish there'd been an actual saber-on-saber fight. But I didn't even realize it was absent from the film until I got home.

I actually thought the closest thing to a lightsaber battle was the fight between Finn and Phasma, and I think that was intentionally done.

The throne room thing was a great scene but wasn't very Star Wars. It was a fight from a Kirosawa movie that they put in the middle of a Star Wars movie. No complaints from me though, it was fun to watch and I want to watch it again.