The great debate...

[jkokura]

Hey guys and gals out there in Interweb land.

This comment here got me thinking... (sorry Marvin, don't mean to pick on you - just the thing you typed)

...since 90+% of all overdrives are based on the tubescreamer...

I've heard this sentiment stated many times. In fact, I've likely repeated it myself at some point, really believing it to be true.

However, I know enough now about these circuits that I'm willing to put myself out there and ask the question: "Is it true that the Ibanez Tubescreamer is the father of almost all other overdrives?"

Feel free to express your opinions and discuss. I'll chime in with my own thoughts sooner or later, but I want to know what you guys think before I do.

Jacob

[oldhousescott]

It may be the father of a great many overdrives, but 90%, probably not. Like Paul C said IIRC "just having diodes in the feedback doesn't make it a TS" (or something to that effect). It just seems to have to the most longevity.

[cjkbug]

there does seem to be a ton of boo-teek drives that are either tubescreamer, muff, rat, or dist+ derivatives. between the 4 of them, the possibilities are virtually limitless. I think that so many pedals are based on these for one reason. they work very well.

[mjcyates]

Well 90% is probably a little bit of an exaggeration but maybe not when you consider the following three categories:

1) Those who take the tubescreamer circuit, change a couple of values, add a switch, and voila we have a new overdrive.

2) Those who start with the basic building blocks of the tubscreamer circuit as a starting point, but make some pretty significant changes to the circuit.

3) Those who like the basic tone of the tubescreamer but have in their head a little different interpretation of the tone and actually design a circuit to produce this tone.

[madbean]

Maybe it isn't true that 90% of all overdrives are just Tube Screamers but at least 51% of all "boutique" overdrives are. Especially the gooped ones

[dwstanford]

They are all tubescreamers.  All of them.  I know what youre thinking.  "This pedal isnt," or "That pedal isnt"...  Yeah, those are too.  I opened up the hood of my car the other day and there was no engine at all, only a TS9 and a 12 volt battery.  What the flip???  They're everywhere!  EVERYWHERE!!!

[Scruffie]

Maybe it isn't true that 90% of all overdrives are just Tube Screamers but at least 51% of all "boutique" overdrives are. Especially the gooped ones

I'd agree with that.

And especially even if you come up with something original it's still going to Appear to have borrowed something at least from one of the big ones (Screamer, Rat, DOD) cause there's only so much you can do with an OpAmp for overdrive/distortion if you keep it around that parts level, the datasheet almost limits you in that sense.

[jtn191]

I didn't think it was so much a debate--rather the TS is like the vanilla of pedal ODs and all the boutique guys are saying "our vanilla is better than vanilla"

[jkokura]

Time for me to chime in...

...it's still going to Appear to have borrowed something at least from one of the big ones (Screamer, Rat, DOD) cause there's only so much you can do with an OpAmp for overdrive/distortion if you keep it around that parts level, the datasheet almost limits you in that sense.

You were keening in on that thing I've been thinking of. The real foundation for these pedals is the dual opamp application notes. It's not the tubescreamer that's the foundation, it's the Opamps themselves.

Opamps are a basic technology that even has their own foundation. Since it got a standardized package it became easy to use, and cheap to manufacture. When you're building ANY product you want exactly that - standardized format and cheap parts. The constituent parts need to be cheap and easy/consistent to work with right?

That's where pedals came in. Some geniuses came up with ideas for creating fuzz back in the day, and there in the same electronics shops where they were getting their resistors, switches and transistors were these opamps on nearby shelves. What obviously ensued were the products that created the foundations of things like TS9s and the DS-1.

It's the op amp that's the foundation, not the Tubescreamer. The Tubescreamer is just an early example that's built on the platform of a dual op amp. To say then that %90, %75, %51 or even %1 percent of OD's are based on the tubescreamer is faulty in my opinion, because actually they're based on a dual op amp configured to create simple distortion.

Like somebody mentioned, Paul Cochrane said that "having diodes in a feedback path doesn't make it a tubescreamer," and that is exactly correct. Using a dual op amp doesn't make it a tubescreamer, however they're related. I think it's more realistic to say that something around %75-80 of overdrives are in the same family as tubescreamers - they are built on the dual op amp foundation for creating their distortion. Even bluesbreakers (KOT) are in that same family, but nobody thinks they're based on the Tubescreamer.

There are two major families for distortion pedals: transistor based and opamp based. Those can then be broken into two branches each: Ge and Silicon for transistors; single and double for op amps. You can then see the various branches that will use a single op amp with hard clipping on the way to the output, or diodes in the feedback path, yada yada yada...

So really, the Tubescreamer is just a variant of one branch of one major family! My point is, it's illogical to the tubescreamer as the foundation - it's really just a well marketed, time proven version of a very useful branch of the pedal distortion family.

However, this made me laugh, and I think it might be true:

Maybe it isn't true that 90% of all overdrives are just Tube Screamers but at least 51% of all "boutique" overdrives are. Especially the gooped ones

Jacob

[jkokura]

Did nobody else have thoughts on this?

Jacob

[timbo_93631]

I think the way you see it is spot on Jacob.  Similar to something I had read about the misnomer of Jim Marshall's first amps were based off of the Bassman.  In actuality both were based on the phase inverter and push/pull output circuit from the western electric manual that related to the tubes themselves...

[culturejam]

The real foundation for these pedals is the dual opamp application notes. It's not the tubescreamer that's the foundation, it's the Opamps themselves.

This is true to a certain extent. But I don't recall ever seeing feedback loop clipping diodes in the app notes of op amps.

Or for that matter, any diodes designed to distort the signal. That's a bastardized use of the technology that is very niche. As is running the op amps to where they clip all by themselves. That's generally something to be avoided, and if you follow the app notes, you'd get clean amplification, buffers, difference amps, comparators, etc. You wouldn't get a dirt box...at least not in the way we like them to be dirty.

But your point about similar foundations is well made. There are only so many ways to make an op amp do the overdrive/distortion thing that works for guitars.


But back to your original question about "90%" of all overdrives being Tubescreamers. I think that's a totally made-up number. And that's not to pick on anyone here, as I've seen it echoed on many forums, both DIY and not. There do seem to be a LOT of overdrives that almost certainly must have begun their life as "let's see how much I can tweak an 808". But to say that the vast majority of drive pedals are "just a tubescreamer" is both wrong and a gross simplification of a very split-hair sort of method of designing circuits.

[keysandguitars]

I'm too green to make commentary, but learned a lot, so thanks for starting the thread and to those who contributed.

Could you start a thread that might classify the Madbean OD's that could fall into categories "TS based clone", "kinda TS", "totally different than a TS". I've built the Glitterati, Serendipity, Neutrino, and  BYOC OD2. I love overdrive so I don't mind building a bunch, but it'd be helpful to know how to diversify. I'm building an EgoDriver next.

[jkokura]

This is true to a certain extent. But I don't recall ever seeing feedback loop clipping diodes in the app notes of op amps.

I think you make a great point culturejam. I haven't seen those app notes either. I do think that many boutique overdrives start as an 808 that's had too much (or not enough) coffee and is all tweaked out. I would appreciate it if more people did as Paul Cochrane did and start from some other idea, like the concept of cutting bass and treb taken from typical front of house mixers like he did. The Timmy is a great circuit, and I hope it lasts because it is different than some typical tubescreamers. I think too that there are a great many 'tone snobs' who sneer at all these TS clones, while I embrace them generally. I like the Tubescreamer a lot, it's a pedal that works really, really well with a huge variety of amps and guitars. I've taken my own stab at a Tubescreamer that's tuned the way I like as well, but I won't hide it.

What frustrates me more is how people hide the fact that their pedal is based on one of the major families - like the dual op amp soft clipping type made popular by tubscreamers, or rats, or muffs, or whatever. Don't hide it, just embrace the new innovations you might have made to an established circuit that makes it useful for you or for new situations.

I'm too green to make commentary, but learned a lot, so thanks for starting the thread and to those who contributed.

I feel the same is true about me!

Could you start a thread that might classify the Madbean OD's that could fall into categories "TS based clone", "kinda TS", "totally different than a TS". I've built the Glitterati, Serendipity, Neutrino, and  BYOC OD2. I love overdrive so I don't mind building a bunch, but it'd be helpful to know how to diversify. I'm building an EgoDriver next.

Perhaps it would be more useful for you to take a stab at it! I read a great article here (http://www.gmarts.org/index.php?go=217) about how distortion is created in pedals. There's also some info there with schematics comparing some early pedals to see how similar/different they are. Notice the similarities in the Rat and Dist+, the similarities in the TS9 and Bluesbreaker. But even though they are similar, they aren't really the same sounding are they!

Having read that article, I suggest you compile a list for yourself of basic topologies (Basic types of circuits) and as you begin to see more and more schematics, start to include them in the lists you create. Perhaps more and more common now are the 'hybrid' series of topologies, ones that claim multiple pedals in their heritage.

Jacob

[culturejam]

I do think that many boutique overdrives start as an 808 that's had too much (or not enough) coffee and is all tweaked out.

I think we could safely call the 808 the "boutique app note". 

What frustrates me more is how people hide the fact that their pedal is based on one of the major families - like the dual op amp soft clipping type made popular by tubscreamers, or rats, or muffs, or whatever. Don't hide it, just embrace the new innovations you might have made to an established circuit that makes it useful for you or for new situations.

This has been my position for a long time. Don't hide the inspiration; celebrate the innovation!