The experimental political thread - be cool

[alanp]

1. She was prepared.  She has spent decades learning the issues, learning the ins & outs of how the US government works, learning foreign policy, and building the perfect resume.

For some people, this was the exact reason they were opposed to her. From an outside perspective, the US doesn't really seem to have changed or evolved much in the last couple decades, apart from the odd minor eruption (like the healthcare thing that Obama did.) Other than that, it's been corporatism business as usual, with the 1% elite gap growing.

So there was also, I suspect, an attitude for a section of voters along the lines of, "Well, Trump is a complete lucky dip as far as the future, but at least it's sure to not be what we've had for the last twenty years."

[alanp]

The focus on investigations related to mishandling of classified information is on malicious intent and severity of consequence if the information is allowed to get "out" which is why there are different security levels for different information.  Anyway, I'm not justifying what was done or disagreeing with whether or not similar behavior from someone else would necessarily land them in jail.  That's stance speculation and nothing more.  I am just pointing this out so folks unfamiliar with the topic do not come away with the wrong impression.

There's something of a damned one way or the other to this.

If there was malicious intent with the email server, and how she handled it on a day to day basis, then she is a criminal.

If there was no malicious intent, then she is either ignorant or incompetent in her handling of USGovt secrecy regulations, despite three decades of working under those regulations, which doesn't bode well for her either.

[peAk]

If the threads almost over...

Let's end on a good note.

[lincolnic]

I've been laying low for a while, partly because of the election, but I want to get in here before the thread gets closed.

If anyone's been feeling helpless and nihilistic in the wake of this election, I want to offer one concrete thing that you can do. I don't think anyone here wants to see Stephen Bannon in the White House, so if you who feel up to it, call your representatives and ask them to speak out against him. It's true that his appointment isn't subject to a Congressional vote, but presidents have been forced to withdraw nominations after public outcry in the past (remember Bill Clinton and Nannygate?).

If you don't know who your representatives are, you can look up your Senators here: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

And your Representatives in the House here: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Call them up, they'll listen! It only takes five minutes of your time, and it could make a real difference.

And remember: if you're upset, do not let this become normal. This is not normal. Pay attention, hold your leaders accountable, and make your voices heard.

[Muadzin]

Time will tell what Trump will do in the US, but in the foreign policy department at least I'm breathing a sigh of relief with Trump. I for one didn't relish the chance of a potential WWIII because Hillary wanted to shoot down Russian aircraft over Syria. If Trump wants to be best pals with Putin I'm fine with that. The less tension in that department, the better. Lately there has been an insane amount of anti-Russia hysteria in the news, and while I don't think the sun shines out of Putin's arse I do start to find it suspect. I've experienced the Cold War during the 80's and the anti-Soviet propaganda back then wasn't this bad. I suspect it was back then the Left kinda liked the USSR whereas nowadays they seem to hate Putin as well. And while the USSR at least was a super power, Russia today is nowhere near that level. France, the UK and Germany each have bigger economies then Russia.

[juansolo]

France, the UK and Germany each have bigger economies then Russia.

We're doing our level best to rectify that currently

[culturejam]

So there was also, I suspect, an attitude for a section of voters along the lines of, "Well, Trump is a complete lucky dip as far as the future, but at least it's sure to not be what we've had for the last twenty years."

That section of voters may well be right (and they may end up wrong, as the Washington machine has a way of taking any input and giving the same old output), but MOST Americans did not vote for this type of roll-of-dice change. About a million more people voted for "establishment" than voted for "drain the swamp".

Since the 2000 election (another instance in which I did not care for either candidate, and at that time I had no major preference on the outcome), I've been advocating to abolish the US Electoral College. I know people say that without it, the smaller states end up with no real say in the outcome, but I think that's crap because it assumes that all of the higher population states would vote 100% for the same candidate. Complete and utter nonsense. Everybody's vote should count equally, and that's the end of it.

TL;DR: Fuck the Electoral College

[toetap]

Feeling the spirit of '76 in 2016...... .... ...Thought this was cool
With echoes of "Hamilton," reader Denis Ian views Nov. 8, 2016:
"Two dozen decades ago, the British Empire bent a knee and grudgingly offered a sword of surrender to an army of Deplorables led by George Washington.
The embarrassment was so mighty, the commander of the defeated couldn't bear to offer his own sword and delegated the display of humility to an underling, slighting the victor and bruising protocol.
The honors of war also called for a British band to play a song chosen by the victors. Legend has it that Washington requested "The World Turn'd Upside Down."
Now the world is again turned upside down. And once more, the underdog outclassed the mighty and, with a legion of Deplorables, pointed to a new and brilliant future.
To bruise the words of Benjamin Franklin, who I am sure is in sweet shock, we have our republic back ... IF we can keep it.
This time, we better pay more careful attention. We are ever lucky for this second chance.
The mess was caused by our own sloppy apathy. Our civic sloth, our moral negligence.
We let others hijack our principles, kidnap our values, and hostage our free speech. We permitted a slender few to tell us who we were to be, rather than honor who we are. We let them guilt us into a nightmare from which we have been freed.
We were mustered by a powerful personality, but in truth, we were the power. Ordinary us. We banged the shields. Banded together in a noisy brotherhood. Steeled our spines. And kept the faith.
We turned the world upside down. Again.
In this new beginning, we should stand tall for anthems that honor us all and kneel more often for the right reasons.
We should respect the Laws of Nature, and make fashionable common sense. Government must be reminded that we are its master.
We are America. Again.

[Muadzin]

That section of voters may well be right (and they may end up wrong, as the Washington machine has a way of taking any input and giving the same old output), but MOST Americans did not vote for this type of roll-of-dice change. About a million more people voted for "establishment" than voted for "drain the swamp".

Since the 2000 election (another instance in which I did not care for either candidate, and at that time I had no major preference on the outcome), I've been advocating to abolish the US Electoral College. I know people say that without it, the smaller states end up with no real say in the outcome, but I think that's crap because it assumes that all of the higher population states would vote 100% for the same candidate. Complete and utter nonsense. Everybody's vote should count equally, and that's the end of it.

TL;DR: Fuck the Electoral College

I've heard that argument as well, saying that without the EC the small states would be ignored. But the big states seem to be mostly blue or red states. So any voter of the opposite opinion in those states might just as well stay at home. So big states, small states doesn't seem to matter. The only thing that seems to matter is which states swing both ways.

Of course this is a problem inherit to any system that uses first past the post. The EC only magnifies this because it basically turns the US into 50 districts. It does make for interesting entertainment though as an outside viewer. Your election nights are way more interesting then ours.

[pickdropper]

The focus on investigations related to mishandling of classified information is on malicious intent and severity of consequence if the information is allowed to get "out" which is why there are different security levels for different information.  Anyway, I'm not justifying what was done or disagreeing with whether or not similar behavior from someone else would necessarily land them in jail.  That's stance speculation and nothing more.  I am just pointing this out so folks unfamiliar with the topic do not come away with the wrong impression.

There's something of a damned one way or the other to this.

If there was malicious intent with the email server, and how she handled it on a day to day basis, then she is a criminal.

If there was no malicious intent, then she is either ignorant or incompetent in her handling of USGovt secrecy regulations, despite three decades of working under those regulations, which doesn't bode well for her either.

ARS technica did an interesting fairly non-partisan review of the email situation.

http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2016/07/indifference-and-ignorance-delving-deep-into-the-clinton-e-mail-saga/

[pickdropper]

Naturally. Who wouldn't vote for those two handsome bastards?

I bet those guys get mad chicks.

Mad is in high quantity or mad as in crazy? 

I'm not sure there is going to be a correct answer for you on this one.   

[lovemyswitches]

The only thing I think I can add here is.. BEWARE OF FEAR. That's what they need us to feel so that they can split us apart. When we are scared of the person on the other side we get angry! And when we are angry we can not see the other persons point of view. And when we can't empathize we get entrenched and stubborn and lose sight of the value of compromise.

We need compromise to move forward as a democracy.

When political parties, corporations, marketers, lobbyists and the culture of our peers corrupts our common sense with making us feel like victims we all lose. DON'T LET THEM MAKE YOU INTO A VICTIM. You're stronger with empathy and forgiveness and understanding.

[culturejam]

I've heard that argument as well, saying that without the EC the small states would be ignored. But the big states seem to be mostly blue or red states. So any voter of the opposite opinion in those states might just as well stay at home.

You're describing what happens now, actually. EC forces states to vote as a single entity (with a few minor exceptions). So if you get 50.01% of the popular vote in any given state, you get 100% of the electoral votes. And that means that 49.99% of the people's vote ended up not counting. It's stupid.

A few examples:

In Cali, Trump got 33% of the popular vote, so he got no electoral votes. That seems outrageously unfair to me.
In Florida, Clinton got 48% of the popular vote, so she got no electoral votes. Madness!!
In New Hampshire, Clinton was at 47.6% and Trump was at 47.2%, and yet Trump gets no electoral votes. Crazy.

No state has ever had 100% of the popular vote for any one presidential candidate.

The net effect of the EC is that the individual votes of voters in less populous states count for more than voters in more populous states. Here's proof:

I live in NJ, which has 14 electoral votes and a population of 8.9 million. Compare that with New Mexico, which has 5 electoral votes with a population of 2 million people. In an equitable distribution of electoral votes, NJ would have a little more than 4x the number of EC votes than New Mexico. But it has less than 3x the number of EC votes. That means my vote counts for less than any person in New Mexico. Not only that, but my watered-down vote counts for nothing if I don't vote for the same candidate as the majority of my fellow statesmen. HORSESHIT!

[nocentelli]

Time will tell what Trump will do in the US, but in the foreign policy department at least I'm breathing a sigh of relief with Trump. I for one didn't relish the chance of a potential WWIII because Hillary wanted to shoot down Russian aircraft over Syria. If Trump wants to be best pals with Putin I'm fine with that.

There is a major concern in Europe that after Putin effectively annexed a large part of Ukraine, other formerly Soviet states that are currently democratic will be similarly re-absorbed. Trump has publicly relished Brexit (just like Putin), and whilst the desire for less war is commendable, the potential for the break-up of the EU and the stability it has provided since the end of the cold war is quite possibly at risk. Obama and the Democrats have always supported a united Europe, and I question Trump's motivation in celebrating the UK'S exit: The fact that both he and Nigel Farage are extremely wealthy individuals posing as "defenders of the working poor" whilst spouting racially divisive rhetoric is seriously troubling.

[jubal81]

I've been laying low for a while, partly because of the election, but I want to get in here before the thread gets closed.

If anyone's been feeling helpless and nihilistic in the wake of this election, I want to offer one concrete thing that you can do. I don't think anyone here wants to see Stephen Bannon in the White House, so if you who feel up to it, call your representatives and ask them to speak out against him. It's true that his appointment isn't subject to a Congressional vote, but presidents have been forced to withdraw nominations after public outcry in the past (remember Bill Clinton and Nannygate?).

If you don't know who your representatives are, you can look up your Senators here: http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm

And your Representatives in the House here: http://www.house.gov/representatives/find/

Call them up, they'll listen! It only takes five minutes of your time, and it could make a real difference.

And remember: if you're upset, do not let this become normal. This is not normal. Pay attention, hold your leaders accountable, and make your voices heard.

Bannon was Trump's second choice after his son-in-law told him Hedley Lamarr was fictional...