The experimental political thread - be cool

[thesmokingman]

I worry about the party in charge of all branches in government. I just spent 6 years in Brownbackistan(Kansas) where the Republican Party controls everything. Kansas now has the worst economy in the U.S. and a government that's teetering on the precipice of a failed state. Ymmv right?

I have so much more to say but I don't want to get preachy or hurt people's feelings. I'll chime in again later.

[Aleph Null]

Most of the people I've spoken to had a very hard time being enthusiastic about either candidate. My gut feeling is that a lot of reasonable people felt they had to choose between one list of unsavory traits or another. These people don't make much noise on social media, but I suspect the comprise most of the voting block.

total control of the house being republican also.

This is what I think people need to be worried about more than the Executive. 
The President can't do much, and can do hardly anything that endures, without the support of the Legislature.

It's true that Republicans now control the Legislature, but Trump isn't really a party insider. His agenda doesn't align perfectly with his party's platform. He won't be able to get much done if the House and Senate decide to stick hard to the official party agenda.

I also found it heartening that, after a meeting with Obama, Trump is reconsidering his stance on the Affordable Care Act. Maybe this means he's open to new information and insight? We can only hope.

[matmosphere]

I agree with much that has been said and definitely echo Jon's comments on climate change, the stance the majority of the republican party has taken there is scary. It's a very serious issue.

The one thing I would say is that I never cared that much for Bernie, I was a big Clinton supporter. Her past and experience probably made her one of the single most qualified candidates to run for office. She has certainly not been perfect but has achieved some great things in her lifetime.

In my opinion her biggest deficit was that the republicans started campaigning against her as soon as Obama won re-election four years ago. I'll never forget how immediately after Obama won in 2008 Mitch McConnell (one of the highest ranking republicans) said the republicans job for the next four years was to make sure Obama wasn't re-elected. The same held true for Clinton after the 2012 election, though they were savy enough to keep it quiet that time. Republicans just started throwing whatever they could at Hillary to see what they could make stick, and unfortunately they managed to create a narrative that she was dishonest and untrustworthy. They would double down on Bengazhi, then the email thing, then the Clinton Foundation, and there were numerous others as well. In the end I don't know if it mattered if there was any real substance to any of those "scandals" but they created such a large amount of them that even democrats started buying into the narrative.

In the end she also had the Russian government, wikileaks, and the freaking director of the FBI try to sabotage her campaign, and she still managed to get more votes than the guy who won.

To me one of the saddest things is that it was our first opportunity for a woman to be president. I'm worried we might not get another chance at that anytime soon. I think people take for granted what just happened with Clinton and don't realize how much harder it must have been for her to get to that point than it would have been for a man. If you asked anybody sixty years ago (when Mrs. Clinton was a little kid) if they thought America would have a woman as a president they would have probably all said no. I think almost everybody would have said the same thing just 25-30 years ago when I was a kid. It scares me because people who are just getting old enough to vote really take this for granted and don't see the history there. After all African-Americans got the right to vote after in the 15th amendment  the civil war (yes I know there were still all kinds of problems that weren't straightened out 'til '65), but women didn't have that right for almost another fifty years until after WWI. Just makes me sad to have missed that chance. It could  come around again soon, but I'm not super hopeful it will.

Brain I get what you are saying about the Republicans having control of both houses of congress and the presidency, but I keep thinking back to those first years of Obama's first term when the dems had that situation. Don't get me wrong, I really think Obama has done a ton of good, but those first two years were rough due largely (IMO) to his inexperience at the time. He really struggled to find his footing for a long time (but man did he ever in the end), and I think the same might be true of Trump. He isn't popular among the Republican's in office, and once the whole excitement wares off he might come up against some real opposition from within his own party.

Everybody has to remember to that the experiences that Jubal81 was talking about are coming from a very small minority of the people who voted for Trump. I think it's safe to say that a good portion of the people that voted for his were pretty uncomfortable with him, and probably would have been relieved a little to see him lose.

I could really go on for a long time about all of this but I'll leave you with this. I teach math at a school that has a huge immigrant population. A few of my classes are english language learners, many of whom barely speak or understand english at all and have a teacher, me, who speaks absolutely no Spanish. It's interesting. Those kids were all scared last Wednesday, and it has been a specter that has hung over the school since. I've had some interesting conversations with them lately, and I really feel for these kids. Wether it's justified or not a lot of those kids are scared.

[thesmokingman]

re: ACA ... things like pre-existing conditions and insuring the young adult population(aka slackers) are probably here to stay because if they are done away with, they will be the hardest to get back in any form. those are "keys to the kingdom" items for insurers. They're both stuck picking up the tab for patients they'd rather not(pre-existing), and they're also stuck covering young adults who'd ideally be paying a higher premium than their folks are paying for them(much less money in their pockets). Less potential for reward and higher risk aren't selling points in any business.

I took a minute to collect myself and my thoughts ... forget how we got here, we're already balls deep in this reality. forget looking into the crystal ball of what they're going to do or not do because we don't know that yet. I want to talk about fear. Specifically, my fear.
I don't like that on day one we've got hate crimes going on encouraged directly by the results of the election. I don't like his answer to that. I don't like that the KKK is holding a celebration rally. I don't like a President Elect trying to postpone a class action federal fraud lawsuit rather than just settle. I don't like Russia admitting their relationship to Trump after he denied it. I don't like people telling me there's an enemies list on national television. I don't like a twitter war with the New York Times after just giving an interview saying this stuff was a thing of the past. I don't like people telling me to get over it before the popular votes have been tallied let alone the electoral college votes cast. These things give me fear and they should trouble you too. All of this has happened since the election. This is completely ignoring everything said to date about what he's done in the past. This is ignoring what he's promised people he will do when he's finally President. Genuinely fearful based just on this stuff.

[Willybomb]

Ok, here's my viewpoint from, well, Australia, but I can't claim to hold the same opinion as anyone else here.

I was pretty stunned when Trump won.  To a large degree, I think we've seen the cult of celebrity win through.  People have voted for the sort of person they wish they could be - a loud, rich, famous TV celebrity who gets away with grabbing lady parts whenever he feels like it.

He also seems to represent a backlash against "political correctness".  People over here seem to think that voicing irrational fears about muslim terrorists in a racist manner is "telling it how it is" rather than the fearmongering it really is.  We've seen the most ignorant politicians get into some power here based on popularist viewpoints such as illegal refugees taking jobs, musims wanting to implement sharia law, whatever.  By taking the views of the lowest common denominator, they appeal to the great unwashed.

As a result, we now have a bunch of science deniers and conspiracy theorists in the senate.  I mean, check this rubbish out:

What is becoming fairly apparent is that Trump has been putting on a show to get the votes and he's a master manipulator.  After watching his victory speech I though, "I could almost vote for that guy if he'd been like that the whole time," and then realised it was all part of the act.  His interview with 60 minutes - "It'll be a fence in places" - he has no intention of following up on some of that stuff.  His list of promises worries me, especially in the areas of abortion and the like.

Anyway, good luck with it guys.  He's been elected by the process and he's there for the next 4 years.

[juansolo]

As an outsider to US politics but someone who has an interest in things going on in the world I'll throw in my two pence. I think the Trump phenomena and Brexit are intrinsically linked.

In the modern democratic world generally we have noticed a widening divide between those in power looking after their own interests and the interests of the corporate world, and those in work who are pushed further and further down the pile. Everything in the corporate world is about making money for the shareholders. When politicians are inevitably linked with these corporate entities they will more and more look after their own interests. Sure it's always happened, but it's never been quite so blatant as when the banking crisis happened.

The banks, through their own greed and manipulation crashed the world economy. They were bailed out by our governments and just simply not held accountable for this. There were token scapegoats, but little more. To add insult to this injury, the people were made to pay for this with austerity. Not the banks who caused it, not the companies that avoid paying taxes in their billions, the people who are being increasingly de-valued and downtrodden.

Then you have our government in particular doing it's level best to destroy the NHS so they can sell it off again to their friends in private industry. The NHS that provides healthcare to EVERYONE. We're very protective of it because it's one of those last brilliant things we have. It's not perfect, but no matter who you are in this country, if you are sick, you can be cared for. 'We' apparently don't have the money to maintain this. But we do have the money for Trident. A weapons system that if we ever used it would mean our imminent destruction. BUT again, who benefits financially from Trident... That would be the banks.

Brexit happened because the unheard people had enough of being victimised by the elite. It was a direct backlash against them. As Trump was against Hillary and all she represents. It's a modern revolution of sorts and if I was the EU I'd be shitting myself as to who will be next? (France/Germany/Italy/Holland).

The problem is of course not that simple. The media has an enormous role to play in this. They have had their own agendas, but the main one has been to deflect 'blame' onto the nearest scapegoat to avoid the real issue (above). So immigrants have been singled out as the Jews of the modern era. Both on this side of the pond and the other. Which has stirred up and empowered the 'less tolerant' among us to an uncomfortable degree.

Here there is the other problem (actually one of the real political issues) of the EU being an unelected body capable of making policy on it's members. It's enjoyed this ridiculous position for too long. The EU needed modernising, but was too damn stubborn. Like the corporate world who believe it doesn't need it's workers, it said, you can like it or lump it. We lumped it, and don't for a second think we'll be the only ones.

Finally there's modern politics in the age of 24hr news, heavily biased media and indeed the modern worship of celebrity over actual reality. We were asked to vote on our remaining in the EU, which in itself is idiotic as that's the exact reason we have a government; to make informed decisions on our behalf... At least that's the theory... As it was we were asked to make the decision for them, but instead of facts we got jingoistic bullshit, blame re-appointing and blatant lies. We had no idea what was fact and what was bullshit. Some were obvious, like the 350m to go to the NHS. BUT PEOPLE BELIEVED IT.

Watching the US presidential election was like having a PTSD flashback of Brexit. It was all happening again. A cocky, overconfident, entitled representative of the current establishment, and a guy basically telling people what they want to hear. The truth wasn't even secondary, it wasn't even considered.

The sad thing is, Trump is part of that corporate system that bullies the little people all for personal progression. You haven't got change there, you've got someone out for himself. Much like we have with Johnson and Farage. Its no different really. We've just swapped one set of uber-rich entitled elite out for another.


FWIW. I voted to remain in the EU, I agree with the main point above about them really needing to reform, but I believed we were better in than out. But I see what's happening as being an inevitable tipping point. It had to happen. It's not the revolution I was expecting or wanted. But it's been a very rude awakening for the modern political world.

I highly recommend watching the documentary HyperNormalisation. It's a little sensationalist at times, but there's an awful lot of very well thought out observation in there about the current state of world politics and how we got to this point: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p04b183c/adam-curtis-hypernormalisation

[raulduke]

I wasn't really shocked that Trump won to be honest. The up-shoot may be that he was just saying whatever he thought he needed to to win. Winning was all that mattered, so he might have a lot of flexibility in his policies now he has got what he wanted.

Like John has commented; the whole campaign and result had clear echoes of the referendum.

I would imagine like the referendum, a lot of the people who voted Trump had nothing to lose.

I imagine they come from towns that in the past were proud white working class areas, where employment was readily available to all in the manufacturing+industry sectors (a 'job for life'). Over the past generation these towns have been totally decimated economically (look at the old pit towns in Yorkshire, near to where I live), and what has been left is people with no work, no hope, no education, no prospects and no economic stability.

What they do have is a clear abiding memory passed down to them of what they used to have and who they believe took it away from them.

Then someone comes along, gift wraps these beliefs in a bow, and tells them that they will bring back manufacturing+jobs, and will get rid of the immigrants who took their work and town from them etc. It's not surprising that they vote for this.

They already believe that all politicians are corrupt liars, so why not vote for the one who at least says what they want to hear. It makes no difference to them. What's the worst that can happen?

The promises these 'populists' spout outweigh the threats from the opposition. Over here it was 'vote leave and we could risk another recession'. A lot of people who voted leave had nothing to lose in the first place, so what do they care?

There are also clearly still severe racial issues in some areas of the US (in the UK too, although to a lesser extent as our population is just not as diverse). From an outsiders perspective, it comes across that this is 'brushed under the carpet' by most politicians and the media, rather than addressed openly. Until this is accepted and addressed, I don't see how things will improve in that regard.

I think we (the West) are about to hit the lowest ebb in politics for many years (upcoming elections in France, Germany, Italy etc. are also worrying).  My only hope is that we have reached some kind of nadir (or will do shortly). I have to believe (esp. now I have a family) that things will get better.

[Muadzin]

I'm not sure how its in the US, but over here the traditional working class has deserted the traditional left wing parties in favor of right wing populist parties. I can understand why. For decades there has been a growing inequality between rich and poor. While the country gets richer, the new wealth is not being distributed equally. Jobs are being outsourced while the jobs that remain have poor job security. It's hard to buy a home or raise a family if you don't know if you will still have a job last year. Meanwhile there is a steady influx of East-Europeans with whom the working class is in stiff competition for jobs and now we have a massive influx of socalled refugees as well which puts immense stress on the rental housing market. Again competition for the working class.

Meanwhile the traditional leftwing parties, who should have looked out for their interests, seem to have abandoned them. At best they're more concerned with political correctness, gay rights, women's rights, minority rights, 3rd world issues, letting even more socalled refugees in, or worse, actively helping rightwing parties push through an agenda which actually increases job insecurity and income equality. I suspect in the case of my country its because the traditional socialist party, which used to be a working class grassroots party, was taken over by university degree intellectuals in the 70's, who seem to have thought that the working class emancipation was concluded, time to move on other issues. Like the stuff I mentioned above. Which means little to nothing to the working class. Who now feel left out in the cold and have become susceptible to the easy seduction of the right wing populist parties. Who at least dare to put issues that matter to them on the public agenda. Only to be then told that they're a bunch of racist xenophobes. The socalled basket of deplorables. Well, as alanp said, nobody likes to be told that they're racist, homophobic, misogynist assholes. Getting insulted does not endear anyone to the insulter, especially when they feel that they have legitimate concerns that do not get addressed in the first place.

There's tough times ahead.

[icecycle66]

If you are really wondering why Trump won, this book is an excellent primer on the divide between what is portrayed on media meant to make money on advertisements to select populations and what all the flyover states have been going through for the past 30 years.

https://www.amazon.com/Strangers-Their-Own-Land-Mourning/dp/1620972255

[playpunk]

I live in a rural county in New York State - so we have an interesting situation, sociologically. On one hand, our economy is, more or less, post manufacturing. There are still a few production sites in the area, but far fewer than 30 years ago. So we are pretty similar to most of "fly over" country in some ways.

On the other hand, I live in a college town, so diversity and inclusion are emphasized by many of the local institutions - schools, governments, etc. There is also a large hispanic population.

I'm a democrat, but I think that the emphasis on social issues - that only really matter to a very small number of people - have hurt the party. I hope that the Dems move for action on matters that actually matter to the central things in people's lives: access to health care, access to a robust labor market, access to a robust safety net that helps people out of poverty.

Each of those three major points has been compromised by Republicans, who have no good solutions to those points. It is the republicans who are trying to screw with Obamacare, it is the Republicans who have been the major movers in the "right to work" and open trade movements, and it is the Republicans who have criminalised poverty.

Concern for the working class and the poor are not really found in the policies and priorities of the entitled class who populate Washington. As I write this, I think of the ways that the Dems have aided the republicans, and contributed in major ways to the fundamental inequalities of our country.

I think the reason Bernie resonated with so many voters is his ability to speak truth to power. Trump (seems) to have that ability (although I can't stand the guy and think he is an amazing liar) and that is why his rhetoric resonated with the working class people of rural america.

The Democrats need to develop younger leaders, and create a political environment where more people are welcome at the table.

[peAk]

I am sure this thread won't go down the shittier simply due to the fact that probably 97% of the people on this forum (and musicians in general) are liberal and lean to the left.

I'll keep it short and just say this... We have had a democratic in office for 8 years and we need a change to keep it balanced IMO. Until this two party thing goes away and we can truly have an independent with a real chance of winning, you can't have one party in office for too many terms. There has to be a balance.

[bcalla]

I was a registered independent until this year.  I switched to Democrat to vote for Bernie in the primary.  When Bernie lost I voted for Clinton for 2 main reasons:
1. She was prepared.  She has spent decades learning the issues, learning the ins & outs of how the US government works, learning foreign policy, and building the perfect resume.
2. Trump not only had none of that, he espoused hateful policies.  I am afraid that hate is rising in the US in no small way as a result of Trump 'normalizing' this behavior.

As a Canadian watching, about the only observation I have had is this: I feel like the American government system is broken. Also, how on earth could anyone think that Hillary was a better option than Sanders. If Sanders was in place, he would have won by a landslide.

I doubt that Bernie (a 75-year-old socialist Jew) would have done much better.  Obviously we can never know, but I think the Trump campaign would have destroyed him.  Trump's closing ad was anti-Semitic, a theme that would have surfaced much sooner if Bernie was the candidate.

[Droogie]

A lot of good points have already been made here. The thing that stands out for me is that this election and Brexit as noted by others previously are indicative of what happens in late-stage capitalism. The folks who have been marginalized economically are manipulated into turning on each other rather than the real source of their pain. It's not a new phenomenon—Lyndon Johnson, a white southerner saw this as common knowledge 50+ years ago.

I grew up in the rustbelt. I have seen the entire economy of that region hollowed out by the loss of jobs. How did those jobs "disappear"? The owners (the .01%) of those industries chose to move those jobs to places where the cost of labor was cheaper. They said that they couldn't compete with foreign companies that had "unfair advantages". Over the last 40 years, the owning class has seen their share of the wealth multiply tremendously, while everyone else is barely, or not even, treading water.

The middle class (which is really a branch of the working class) is useful to the owning class because they serve as the buffer between the working class and themselves. These are the managers who do the dirty work of firing/laying off, etc. And the anger of those directly affected is geared towards the middle class, when those decisions are made at the upper levels of the ownership (I work for a large corporation as a manger btw).

The beauty of racism is that it allows the owning class to misdirect the working class into blaming others (including the middle class) rather than those actually responsible (themselves) for the true economic hardship. People like Rush Limbaugh have made careers out of this and have been handsomely rewarded for their efforts (also Fox "News"). DT made a nakedly racist appeal to people who have been economically marginalized and their anger and frustration found a voice. Mexicans did not ship jobs out of the country. Muslims didn't either. Gays? Nope. Black people?... The people who own those companies moved those jobs, and got tax breaks to do it!

As I mentioned previously, I know lots of folks who have seen their way of life destroyed before their eyes—particularly those of my generation (born '61), who grew up with this expectation of good-paying industrial jobs available to those without advanced education (I didn't go to college). I also have members of my extended family who likely were KKK back in the day. And I know this: no one is born racist, and no one asks to be racist. We live in societies where racism and bigotry are useful tools of class oppression. That's why it exists. I don't hate the people who are the main subjects of this teaching (good white working-class people). I do fight back when their behavior harms others. And this is already happening across the country, as I knew it would.

DT will do absolutely nothing to help those disaffected folks who are in economic pain. He's already getting ready to gut many of the regulations and policies that actually help the vast majority of people (and they're already insufficient) in favor of implementing policy that benefits the 1%. Did any of DT's working class supporters (btw HRC won the majority of people earning < $50k) vote to have medicare and social security dismantled; getting rid regulations put in place to prevent the destruction of the economy by Wall Street? I don't think so.

[GermanCdn]

I'll do my best to sound intelligent and informed here, though I'm probably not qualified in either regard on this issue.

As an outsider (Canadian), I didn't see either candidate as a good option for various reasons.  Jeff Dunham had a blurb on the radio that was quite fitting - "Even if you hate both candidates, go out and vote for the one you dislike the least, because in doing so, you have done your part in trying to make the result a little less shitty."  And with 49% of the country not voting (I think that was the number), you get the results from the other 51%.

I guess what I found disturbing in the whole process (I don't know if disturbing is the right word, and it could be just complete media bias in the way they were showcasing the voter base) is that it appeared like a lot of voters were voting based on a single issue, and the impact of that issue on the country as a whole was relatively insignificant (one woman they had on stated "I'm voting for Trump because Hillary will take my guns away".  My analogy to that would be selling my house for a loss because I don't like the colour of paint.  Sure it's an issue, but is it the hill to die on, most people would say probably not).

And now you have four years of Trump as POTUS.  How someone with no qualifications or experience can land that job blows my mind.  No political experience, but holds one of the most significant political positions in the world.  I suspect a lot of his blow hard stances will go away or at least calm down to a rational level.  At least I hope so.

Locally here we had a change in government for the first time in 41 years last year.  Much of the vote was entirely reactionary, as the public were tired of the previous party and their attitude of entitlement.  A year and a half later, it's been a pretty much a disaster.  In what would have been tough times for any party (I live in a province that booms and busts with the price of oil, so we've been in bust mode for two years), the government with no leadership experience has made it significantly worse.  They've introduced measures to actually make it less business friendly in a time when investment is down to begin with, have introduced legislation that contravenes existing contract law, and in doing so, are now trying to invalidate contracts that have been in place for decades which will only further amplify the problem.  Everytime our premier walk up to a microphone, all you get is deer in the headlights and useless banter.   Hopefully you don't experience the same with Trump.

That being said, a decision was made, and the results should be accepted.  I find the level of protests to be disturbing and reflect badly on the process as a whole.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

How someone with no qualifications or experience can land that job blows my mind.  No political experience, but holds one of the most significant political positions in the world.

Trump has EVERY qualification needed to become President of the USA.

Trump also has plenty of "experience." As you stated, he has little to no POLITICAL experience however, that is exactly what people were looking for. Someone who was not a "lifetime politician."

Personally, I do not care which political party holds the office. As long as they do a good job and do what is right for our country! Period.