Sunking, Deadringer or Aristocrat?

[Haberdasher]

Along the same lines as Hyatt's thread about the Neutrino or Egodriver, I guess.   I don't have a particular tone in my head, but I'd like to build at least one of these.  I'm just looking for opinions which of the 3 you guys prefer.

I've never played or heard any of these in person, just youtube demos.  What is your favorite?

[madbean]

Let me put a plug in for the King of [K]lones, which is the single channel version of the Aristocrat. I really like that one. I have mine set up with an external Presence pot and the clipping switches on the outside. I find it to be very versatile.

That said, the Sunking is a different animal. More clean boost on tap. Again, I have mine modded to have a 3-way clipping switch to go between germanium, silicon diodes and no clipping diodes. I like it a lot without any clipping diodes and with the gain about 70% up. It's a little rude this way, which is what I like.

The Deadringer is a fine OD on it's own. And it also has a lot of clipping choices. Of the three, it is probably my least favorite. Not that is 'worse' sounding. Just not my preference. Actually, I prefer jFet overdrives over all of the op-amp based ones. But that is a different conversation

[mjcyates]

If I was only going to build one of those I would go with the Sunking. I think it has a unique tone that is very cool. Probably not as versatile as the other two.

[Haberdasher]

Actually, I prefer jFet overdrives over all of the op-amp based ones. But that is a different conversation

No, really.  I won't think you're thread-jacking if you talk about this a little. 
Fill me in!

[Haberdasher]

Actually, I prefer jFet overdrives over all of the op-amp based ones. But that is a different conversation

No, really.  I won't think you're thread-jacking if you talk about this a little. 
Fill me in!

Wow, I just re-read my post here and realized how sarcastic it sounded.  I actually didn't intend any sarcasm at all.  So just in case anyone thought I was being cheeky, I am posting again to clarify things.  Sometimes I suck at the internet I guess...

Anyway, I really do want to hear about jFet overdrives.  Brian, were you talking about the Grapevine?

[madbean]

I didn't read your reply that way.

I'm not talking about any one particular effect, as much as stating a general preference. JFets sound more natural to me, with more harmonic content than most op-amp based overdrives. They work great for boost and distortion, too. I came to that conclusion solely from having built lots and lots of circuits and listening to their character and texture. I can usually tell one type from the other just by listening, although voicing and other factors can make them sound similar.

Anyway, there are a lot of great op-amp OD's out there, and in a way they a bit easier to work with in terms of bias and gain. The jFets can be finicky with the biasing (except for mu-amp type stuff like the BSAIB) so it requires a bit more attention if you are actually trying to DESIGN something. With op-amps, it's more predictable: stick a large enough resistor in series with your Vref and then it's just plugging in the right pots/resistors/caps to get the voicing you want. You get a good OD or distortion from only one stage.

The fets require multiple stages to get those kinds of gains, which opens more possibility for shaping the tone between and through those stages. But, that's also part of the fun. For example, the "Faultline" has A LOT going on. Three gain stages and two buffers and tone controls. And the result is something you just won't reproduce exactly if you were trying to do it with op-amps. It would not be as warm and "sticky" sounding. And that's the real magic, IMO: there's a certain saturation and feel to them that is unique.

Obviously, IC's are made up of a bunch of transistors, and there are jFet-based ones out there like the LF347 that might work just as well. Honestly, I haven't spent enough time researching that to give a better opinion. I'm commenting only on what I hear, and trying to wrap some kind of reasonable explanation around that. I might be completely wrong

[Haberdasher]

I didn't read your reply that way.

No harm, no foul then.  Sometimes it's hard to pick up on someone's meaning on message boards.  I know I have mistaken somebody's meaning before, although this is the first time I ever did it to myslef. 
Anyhow, just making sure.

I'm not talking about any one particular effect, as much as stating a general preference. JFets sound more natural to me, with more harmonic content than most op-amp based overdrives. They work great for boost and distortion, too. I came to that conclusion solely from having built lots and lots of circuits and listening to their character and texture. I can usually tell one type from the other just by listening, although voicing and other factors can make them sound similar.

Anyway, there are a lot of great op-amp OD's out there, and in a way they a bit easier to work with in terms of bias and gain. The jFets can be finicky with the biasing (except for mu-amp type stuff like the BSAIB) so it requires a bit more attention if you are actually trying to DESIGN something. With op-amps, it's more predictable: stick a large enough resistor in series with your Vref and then it's just plugging in the right pots/resistors/caps to get the voicing you want. You get a good OD or distortion from only one stage.

The fets require multiple stages to get those kinds of gains, which opens more possibility for shaping the tone between and through those stages. But, that's also part of the fun. For example, the "Faultline" has A LOT going on. Three gain stages and two buffers and tone controls. And the result is something you just won't reproduce exactly if you were trying to do it with op-amps. It would not be as warm and "sticky" sounding. And that's the real magic, IMO: there's a certain saturation and feel to them that is unique.

Obviously, IC's are made up of a bunch of transistors, and there are jFet-based ones out there like the LF347 that might work just as well. Honestly, I haven't spent enough time researching that to give a better opinion. I'm commenting only on what I hear, and trying to wrap some kind of reasonable explanation around that. I might be completely wrong

Hmm, sounds interesting.  Thanks for the insight.

[Haberdasher]

Let me put a plug in for the King of [K]lones, which is the single channel version of the Aristocrat. I really like that one. I have mine set up with an external Presence pot and the clipping switches on the outside. I find it to be very versatile.

Just use a 50kB pot there, right?

[madbean]

I think it's 25k. Whatever value that is listed for the trimpot is correct.

[PeterMorton]

I'm not talking about any one particular effect, as much as stating a general preference. JFets sound more natural to me, with more harmonic content than most op-amp based overdrives. They work great for boost and distortion, too. I came to that conclusion solely from having built lots and lots of circuits and listening to their character and texture. I can usually tell one type from the other just by listening, although voicing and other factors can make them sound similar.

Anyway, there are a lot of great op-amp OD's out there, and in a way they a bit easier to work with in terms of bias and gain. The jFets can be finicky with the biasing (except for mu-amp type stuff like the BSAIB) so it requires a bit more attention if you are actually trying to DESIGN something. With op-amps, it's more predictable: stick a large enough resistor in series with your Vref and then it's just plugging in the right pots/resistors/caps to get the voicing you want. You get a good OD or distortion from only one stage.

The fets require multiple stages to get those kinds of gains, which opens more possibility for shaping the tone between and through those stages. But, that's also part of the fun. For example, the "Faultline" has A LOT going on. Three gain stages and two buffers and tone controls. And the result is something you just won't reproduce exactly if you were trying to do it with op-amps. It would not be as warm and "sticky" sounding. And that's the real magic, IMO: there's a certain saturation and feel to them that is unique.

Obviously, IC's are made up of a bunch of transistors, and there are jFet-based ones out there like the LF347 that might work just as well. Honestly, I haven't spent enough time researching that to give a better opinion. I'm commenting only on what I hear, and trying to wrap some kind of reasonable explanation around that. I might be completely wrong

I have often tried to explain the difference between these two types in guitar player language. I think of the IC-based OD's like humbuckers. Humbuckers normalize things. They sound more the same from player to player, guitar to guitar. They don't lack character as much as they lack individuality. And I'm overstating it to make my point. Singlecoil p'ups, on the other hand, sound different from player to player, guitar to guitar. Again, I'm overstating/oversimplifying, but I hope that you can see that single coils reveal more of the player behind the note. Many players can hear a TS-style boost, but it's harder to pick out the jfets. Maybe it's just compression that makes the difference? And, of course, transistors are easy to ID. Almost no one mistakes a fuzz for a TS.

[Haberdasher]

Brian

I notice that the King of [K]lones and Glitterati are both supposed to be based off the BluesBreaker.  How does the Glitterati compare?  Should I assume you prefer the Ko[K]?

[madbean]

The Glitterrattii comes from the BB Preamp, not the Blues Breaker. They are not at all alike in design or sound, IMO. I like them both but for different reasons. The Glitt has a somewhat more hi-fi sound and good tonal range due to the two active bass and treble EQ'A. The KoK has a more classic rock sound, and more clipping choices. So, I would say they compliment one another.

If I had to pick one, I would probably build the KoK because it's the sound I want more.

[Haberdasher]

Ah, my mistake then.  I must have misinterpreted what I read.

Thanks for the info as always!

[jkokura]

I love the Aristocrat I just built. Haven't gotten to the Deadringer yet, but I know the Aristocrat rocks!

Getting the diodes was a bit of a pain...

Jacob

[Haberdasher]

OK, I think I'm going to build the ko[k].  Thanks for all the opinions.

To save me from buying another enclosure for a boost I'm thinking about putting a slambox or fatpants in there with it.  I saw the thread on wiring 2 effects in one box, so I think I have a handle on that.  I guess I have 2 questions.

1)  Which order would I put the effects in the box. i.e., would I put the ko[k] next to the input jack or the other way around?
2)  Which boost is better paired with the ko[k]? (subjective, I know...)

Also Brain, have you seen the xotic bb plus?  They have a nifty feature where you can switch the order of the effects in the box.  You ever cook anything up like that?