We're out... (UK leaves EU)

[juansolo]

I'm also now surprised there is no serious talk of a "do-over" vote. I would have thought cooler heads would have come to the front by  now and made the case for rethinking the vote.

You massively overestimate our politicians. They're all in damage limitation mode, ie, their own damage limitation. The Conservatives are essentially leaderless and directionless, the labour party have decided to use this as an opportunity to get rid of their leader (they mostly don't like him) by petty in-fighting.

Leaving the 'leave campaign' that consists of some of the vilest most hated politicians in the system. Gove did his level best to destroy education with a view to privatising it (ie break it so bad he can sell it to his mates or companies that he has a vested interest in). Hunt who tried to do the same with the NHS. Farage who's possibly the biggest racist on the planet and only slightly more level headed (slightly) than Trump. Finally Boris Johnson, who's an utter buffoon. All of them have been proven to be liars and manipulators that have purely been out to further their own agenda's rather than working for the good of the country.

Nope, the leave vote has left us in more than a bit of a state. No one is calming it, hence our economy will likely collapse as the notoriously twitchy business world reacts to the lack of control.

The losers will of course be the people without off-shore savings funds. The ones who do pay their taxes. Sadly people were swung by big sweeping statements like 'let's invest the 350m a week from the EU back in the NHS' which was pure fiction. Or the one about stopping immigration which is I suspect the same issue as in the states, as in it isn't one and they're just being scapegoated, because we need to create a scapegoat to blame everything on, because politicians don't take the blame...

So where I could work/live anywhere in Europe, that'll go. My sister-in-law, who's Belgian and who's lived here longer than she lived in Belgium is now genuinely concerned for her future.

People just didn't think... Had they been told that leaving was likely to fuck them up financially, they'd probably have voted differently. Had this campaign of xenophobia from politicians and the media not been so comprehensive, maybe people would have voted differently.

FFS have we learned nothing that we're going to go back to hating people purely based on where they're from. Really?!  Because if that's the case, I don't want to live here any more. I thought Britain was over that sort of shit. We've been multi-cultural pretty much since WW2, now we want to reverse all that?

The more I think about it, the more utterly depressed I get.

[GermanCdn]

I watched John Oliver's take on it last night, and as usual he was pretty spot on.  Definitely going to be a rough patch.

[selfdestroyer]

I watched John Oliver's take on it last night, and as usual he was pretty spot on.  Definitely going to be a rough patch.

That's how I caught up also... I have no comments at all since I am still wrapping my head around it.

[Muadzin]

You massively overestimate our politicians. They're all in damage limitation mode, ie, their own damage limitation. The Conservatives are essentially leaderless and directionless, the labour party have decided to use this as an opportunity to get rid of their leader (they mostly don't like him) by petty in-fighting.

Leaving the 'leave campaign' that consists of some of the vilest most hated politicians in the system. Gove did his level best to destroy education with a view to privatising it (ie break it so bad he can sell it to his mates or companies that he has a vested interest in). Hunt who tried to do the same with the NHS. Farage who's possibly the biggest racist on the planet and only slightly more level headed (slightly) than Trump. Finally Boris Johnson, who's an utter buffoon.

I don't think Boris is a buffoon. He plays one very well though. No doubt because it charms people into liking him and it makes those who dislike him underestimate him. Farage on the other hand, every time he's on my TV screen he makes me want to smash the screen. I wouldn't let my cat take a shit on a newspaper he's in.

All of them have been proven to be liars and manipulators that have purely been out to further their own agenda's rather than working for the good of the country.

I think that describes Boris more then anything. Farage I can believe he just genuinely hates the EU. If he wanted actual power he would have joined one of the big parties as the chance of UKIP getting any actual power are slim to none. He seems like one of those people who just wants to blow up the system. Even if that means torching everything and everyone around him. Nero playing the violin as Rome burns. But Boris wanted to become PM, no matter what the cost to himself, the party or the country. If Cameron had headed the leave campaign he would have gleefully headed the stay campaign.

Nope, the leave vote has left us in more than a bit of a state. No one is calming it, hence our economy will likely collapse as the notoriously twitchy business world reacts to the lack of control.

The losers will of course be the people without off-shore savings funds. The ones who do pay their taxes. Sadly people were swung by big sweeping statements like 'let's invest the 350m a week from the EU back in the NHS' which was pure fiction. Or the one about stopping immigration which is I suspect the same issue as in the states, as in it isn't one and they're just being scapegoated, because we need to create a scapegoat to blame everything on, because politicians don't take the blame...

So where I could work/live anywhere in Europe, that'll go. My sister-in-law, who's Belgian and who's lived here longer than she lived in Belgium is now genuinely concerned for her future.

You're welcome to join us on the continent while you still can though. 

People just didn't think... Had they been told that leaving was likely to fuck them up financially, they'd probably have voted differently.

They weren't?  Didn't the Stay campaign basically unleash one doom scenario after the other to scare people into not voting to leave?

Maybe that was the problem. Politicians have become lazy and all they can do is scare us. Of the doom and gloom of a Brexit. Of the scary foreigners and EU bureaucracy. Of the evil terrorists. They've lost the art to inspire us with an uplifting message. Why the EU is a good thing. How it has made nations who went to war with each other once every few decades into friends and allies. How we are always stronger together then on our own.

Had this campaign of xenophobia from politicians and the media not been so comprehensive, maybe people would have voted differently.

FFS have we learned nothing that we're going to go back to hating people purely based on where they're from. Really?!  Because if that's the case, I don't want to live here any more. I thought Britain was over that sort of shit. We've been multi-cultural pretty much since WW2, now we want to reverse all that?

Maybe that is the lesson we should take at heart. That everything we take for granted can be taken away from us. Because politicians like Cameron don't know how to inspire and lead their nations, because there are political arsonists like Nigel Farage who delight in blowing up the system, and because there are those like Boris Johnson who crave power above all things that they are also willing to blow up the system.

The more I think about it, the more utterly depressed I get.

Well, you could always do what they did in the Ukraine, start your own orange revolution. Every country gets the politicians its deserves. Either by agreeing with them, or by not bothering to do anything about them.

[juansolo]

They weren't?  Didn't the Stay campaign basically unleash one doom scenario after the other to scare people into not voting to leave?

The remain camp said it'd all go to shit if we left, the leave camp said we'd have less and less control if we stayed and this was the only option. Remain wheeled out experts, leave said, and I quote "people have had quite enough of 'experts'". Remain said it'd be doom and gloom if we left, leave said it was fear mongering (oh the irony)...

There were little to no actual facts. Indeed the only person to accurately predict the outcome was the leader of the liberal democrats, who utterly nailed it. But no one listens to him...

[lars]

This news....HUGE!!!

[juansolo]

Another quite well written article on the current state of affairs. I don't necessarily agree with all of it. But she certainly seems to be like me in thinking that we're pretty fucked unless someone actually does something now: https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/

The comments section then devolves into shouting at each other... So maybe the government it just reflecting the mood of the people...?

I was the only member of my family who voted to stay... Maybe it's me that's got it all wrong?

[Muadzin]

The remain camp said it'd all go to shit if we left, the leave camp said we'd have less and less control if we stayed and this was the only option. Remain wheeled out experts, leave said, and I quote "people have had quite enough of 'experts'".

Yes, damn those pesky experts! How dare they confuse us with their expert knowledge. And wisdom. And general all round better knowledge of things we don't have.


Remain said it'd be doom and gloom if we left, leave said it was fear mongering (oh the irony)...

There were little to no actual facts. Indeed the only person to accurately predict the outcome was the leader of the liberal democrats, who utterly nailed it. But no one listens to him...

[/quote]

I was the only member of my family who voted to stay... Maybe it's me that's got it all wrong?

You got to remember that people do not make logical informed decisions. It's emotional driven decisions. All the logic and reasoning only comes afterwards to justify their decisions. The leave camp understood this better then the remain camp. In any given discussion emotions and identity >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> logic. And Go Team UK and Scary Foreigners make for far better persuasion then boring Europe and cold hard facts.

[GermanCdn]

Another quite well written article on the current state of affairs. I don't necessarily agree with all of it. But she certainly seems to be like me in thinking that we're pretty fucked unless someone actually does something now: https://katyboo1.wordpress.com/2016/06/27/happy-now/

The comments section then devolves into shouting at each other... So maybe the government it just reflecting the mood of the people...?

I was the only member of my family who voted to stay... Maybe it's me that's got it all wrong?

Geez, the idea of trying to get rid of Mark Carney is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have heard in a long time.  Mark managed to keep the Canadian economy in relatively good condition from 2008 - 2010, if the UK is going into recession (which seems like a foregone conclusion at this point), he's the guy you want.  But by all means, if you don't want him, we'll take him back, no questions asked.

[culturejam]

Mark Carney

Totally read that as Art Carney.

[juansolo]

A very long read, but one of the most balanced considerations of how we got into the situation I've read. I encourage reading it if you've any interest in how countries end up in this predicament.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/30/brexit-disaster-decades-in-the-making?CMP=share_btn_fb

In a way, reading that makes me think that we were heading here regardless and because of that, it makes me much more accepting of the situation. He's absolutely right on many issues that led to this that I noticed and I'm sure many others have too. We've just ignored it. This will at least force some sort of response from the ruling class. Indeed, it's sent them into disarray. But they'll have to address these issues now or watch the country implode on itself.

[Muadzin]

Interesting analysis. And I think it applies just as much for us on the continent. The integration of the white working class into the economy on the continent has just as much been neglected. The old socialist and christian democrat parties that looked out for them in the past have all become one neo-liberal gestalt which are all interchangeable. With leftwing parties more concerned with looking after refugees, minorities and gay rights, while cheerfully willing to vote in favor of doing away with old securites that the white working class held dear, and multinationals outsourcing jobs to countries with cheap labor it has left them vulnerable to the populist demagogues who are now raking in their votes.

[juansolo]

...and IT is the new manufacturing. My job went to India and I'm pretty much unemployable in that role now due to 'globalising' (they stopped calling it off-shoring). I need to get myself back into work soon, but my skills are no longer relevant in this country. Just the latest casualties of businesses out sourcing.

Nothing changes without something this extreme coming along and shaking things up. I could just do without it empowering all the bigots and those with fascistic tendencies. That's very much the wrong solution to the situation.

Hopefully (hope, now there's a thing), things might change for the better. I'm gonna try and be more positive about it.

[Muadzin]

Somebody on a different forum called it a bloodless revolution. Still, you can ask the French, the Russians, the Iranians, the Egyptians and the Syrians how their revolutions worked out for them. The general modus operandi for revolutions seems to be: shit goes bad -> people blame old elite-> revolution deposes old elite -> ....? -> shit goes a lot worse -> new elite takes over -> if lucky shit goes back just to what it used to be or stabilizes at an lower point.

So I predict the UK will leave the EU and end up like Norway and Switserland. Still part of the common market and all its programs, still paying to be part of all it, but no longer having any say in the matter. Which still leaves the question what Scotland will do.

[Willybomb]

I feel for you guys in the U.K., and also for the guys in the US.

What a mess. At least the discussion here is reasonable and carefully expressed. Nothing makes me want to face palm more than reading the comments on a Facebook thread.

In slightly similar but different news, Australia has a federal election this Saturday. I've already done an absent vote for whatever reason, but there isn't a single party or candidate that is worth voting for in the lower house. The senate has a couple, but it's chockablock with racists, anti vaxxers, and special interest groups with an extremely narrow set of interests.