UK / EU folks: Thoughts on the upcoming "Br-Exit" referendum?

[juansolo]

Quite frankly the whole thing has devolved into a name calling/scare-mongering fest. No real facts available from each side, each claiming being in/out will be the end of us.

As a voter this is about the biggest cop-out in politics. The people who run this country are supposed to make an informed decision on this stuff. But because if they get it wrong they'll be hung out to dry, they've done something really smart; let's have a referendum and let the people decide!

It's a win-win for the government. If it all goes to shit, they can say, 'well that's what you voted for'. If it all goes well it happened during their term so they can take credit for not only it working, but for them giving us the power to make that decision too.

The problem is that we're not being informed with any facts or proposals as to how exiting the EU would effect anything. All are spouting degrees of bullshit that make it impossible to separate informed opinion from scare mongering. This leaves people to vote on their instincts. The first being that if the Tories mostly want it, then what's in it for them (as that's how they operate) and would that be bad for us? That's not as ill informed as it might sound as there are certain safeguards that are put in place by the EU to stop the UK government from going full on big brother and just becoming corporate bitches. Again that might be scare mongering.

That said, there are countries in Europe who function very nicely without being in the EU. They have trade agreements in place, but like us have their own currencies and border controls (though we're much more effective at that as we're an island). Leaving the EU would allow us much more control over our own destiny, but may effect us economically as we have to re-negotiate trade deals.

Another thing being preyed on is nationalistic xenophobia.  IMMIGRANTS! TERRORISTS!  I sadly feel a great many people will base their votes entirely on this issue and vote out thinking it's going to solve all our problems. Not really realising that 'they' did not took ooor jeerbs. Really, I've not seen this influx of this happening. If anything our jeeerbs are being 'off-shored/globalised' to India and Poland. Industry is not employing cheap labour here, because it's cheaper elsewhere.

Then there's history... People forget history all too quickly. Forget the Middle East. Historically speaking Europe has been battling between it's member states for pretty much ever. It only stopped last time 60 odd years ago. The EU has remained a mostly peaceful joining of nations since and we want to start segregating again and becoming insular? Is this really the way forward?

Personally I was originally in the out camp, mainly because I liked the idea of autonomy, along with trade deals. Plus being an island, our borders are already much more policeable than pretty much all of the rest of Europe. But the more I think about it, the more I actually think that despite a lot of the negative shit the EU brings, it's outweighed by the positives. I like being able to move freely and easily around Europe. I consider us to be part of Europe and am not sure I want to not be as I really quite like it. I like the EU putting checks and balances on our government because quite simply I do not trust them and I think removing the people who watch the watchmen is an incredibly bad idea.

As I say, that's about as informed as I can be given the misinformation out there.

[juansolo]

It's bit like last years election, which resembled that South Park episode where they have to choose between a douche and a turd... no easy decision to be made 

I found it painful. Idealistically I lean towards labour, but I can't stand certain things about that practically. Realistically I go conservative, but my hippy side cannot stand their selfish self-serving nature. Then you have the leaders (at the time). Cameron is possibly the slimiest man alive. The personification of entitlement. Milliband cheated and stabbed his own brother in the back to run for party leader for his own gain at the expense of labour having any chance of winning the election.

In a way the coalition worked. Because the liberals stopped the tories from doing what they've done since they've grabbed full power. They seem hell bent on breaking the NHS so they can sell it to their buddies cheap. Fuck me I remember the last time they were in when I worked in the NHS and they tried the same thing. This alone stops me voting for them.

Basically politicians, all of them, are self-serving arseholes. I can't bring myself to vote for any of them when all the choices are shit.

That said, if we had Trump over here I'd make sure that psycho didn't get anywhere near office. WTF is going on over there?!

[Muadzin]

Methinks this referendum again proves, like the recent referendum in the Netherlands, that referendums are the shittiest idea ever. The idea is that people can vote on a subject. Only that subject is incredibly complex. Which is why we have elected representatives in the first place, because most people are not that well informed, knowledgeable or capable to understand the issue. It also assumes that people make rational choices. They don't. We're not rational beings. We're moist robots. We make emotional decisions and only then rationalize why we made that choice after the fact. It's all made worse because morons can now find each other online and create little online echo chambers where they can reinforce their moronic viewpoints and make them even worse. You start a referendum, it will bring out the crazies, the morons, the conspiracy nutters.

As for this referendum, to me it seems purely driven by Tory politics, as the Tory party has been hopelessly split on the EU since like forever. And none of the Tory leaders so far has had the balls, the skills or the vision to settle it once and for all. Which leads me to think the British people, and by default the rest of the EU, are now having to pay for Cameron not showing any leadership on Europe in his own party. And it doesn't help that Boris Johnson is willing to screw over the UK's long term future for a chance to knife Cameron in the back to become PM. It reminds me of the politicians in the fomer Yugoslavia and USSR who were willing to break up whole countries just to further their own personal political ambitions.

[culturejam]

The problem is that we're not being informed with any facts or proposals as to how exiting the EU would effect anything.

I'm not sure that anyone actually knows how a UK exit will actually effect domestic economics and social issues. There are theories, but you never really know until you do it. And then, of course, it's too late.

[juansolo]

Agree totally with both the above points.

The safest thing we can do, as was with the Scots and independence, is vote to stay. All we will have achieved is a massive upheaval and expense to do absolutely nothing.

[darrenw6000]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E

[mah62]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E

Did this bloke just call Obama the worst President in history?....er...has he not heard
of Richard Nixon or Bush junior?

[Muadzin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFt-pRIvL9E

Did this bloke just call Obama the worst President in history?....er...has he not heard
of Richard Nixon or Bush junior?

When there is a government in power that is the opposite of your political persuasion there is a tendency to engage in hyperbole. They quickly become 'the worst government in history evah!!!'. And Richard Nixon wasn't that bad. Historians don't view him that negatively. He just got caught doing something really stupid and tried to cover it up. As for Bush Jr., time will tell, but I find it telling that during one of the South Carolina debates when Trump denounced Bush Jr. and called the Iraq invasion a mistake he got booed. 

[culturejam]

Whelp, this just got really ugly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-member-of-parliament-reported-to-have-been-shot/2016/06/16/a9b988de-33c4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

[matmosphere]

Wow, I didn't realize that was tired to the referendum. That's terrible.

[alanp]

Saw a video that provoked an interesting question -- as far as the EU goes, who elects the overarching, federal level policymakers in the EU, and the EU High Lord?

It seems to me that if you're going to stay in the EU, you NEED to know the answer to this, and to be okay with it.

[juansolo]

Whelp, this just got really ugly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-member-of-parliament-reported-to-have-been-shot/2016/06/16/a9b988de-33c4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

Yeah things have taken a really dark turn Not far from me either. Sadly she was one of the few good politicians that actually seemed to be in it for all the right reasons. My thoughts to her family.

There are too many psychotic arseholes in this world. This is not how civilised people are supposed to behave.

[Muadzin]

Saw a video that provoked an interesting question -- as far as the EU goes, who elects the overarching, federal level policymakers in the EU, and the EU High Lord?

It seems to me that if you're going to stay in the EU, you NEED to know the answer to this, and to be okay with it.

The governments of the EU member countries?

Everybody keeps on acting as if Brussel actually sets any policy independently, it doesn't. That's just a myth perpetrated by both EU skeptics and governments who don't want to admit that they actually agreed to this policy or showed poor negotiating skills. Brussels is a convenient scapegoat to both of them. The EU bureaucracy just does what the EU governments wants them to do. If Brussels could actually do anything independently of the EU governments don't you think both the Greek debt and migrant crisis wouldn't have gotten as out of control as they did? In either case nothing could be done because the EU members couldn't agree on a common course of action. With the Brussels bureaucrats and commissioners just looking on in the sidelines twiddling their thumbs in impotence.

Whelp, this just got really ugly:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/british-member-of-parliament-reported-to-have-been-shot/2016/06/16/a9b988de-33c4-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html

Yeah things have taken a really dark turn Not far from me either. Sadly she was one of the few good politicians that actually seemed to be in it for all the right reasons. My thoughts to her family.

There are too many psychotic arseholes in this world. This is not how civilised people are supposed to behave.

I really do blame the internet. It really does make it easier for likeminded idiots to find each other and reinforce themselves in their idiocies. Any moron is just a few clicks away from finding things that reinforces their delusions.

[matmosphere]

It seems the science community feels that leaving the EU would be bad.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/mar/10/brexit-disaster-for-uk-science-say-scientists-stephen-hawking

[Muadzin]

If Stephen Hawking says so its got to be true. Smartest guy in the universe. Also one should not piss off the Hawkman. Because all his shootings be drivebys.