Need opinions on ribbon mics

[midwayfair]

I'm looking at several ribbon mics. I'm specifically looking for something to pair with my Sennheiser MK4 when dual micing.

My only references are a Fathead -- which I think is too dark -- and a Royer 121, which I can neither afford nor justify buying for making demos. The other mics I have around that get the most use are a 609 and an AT pencil condenser that's also quite dark but also doesn't really have good detail even in the low end. I'm primarily looking for a ribbon to take over for that one.

This is the stuff I'm looking at:
Fathead -- yeah, I already said it's too dark, but the basic version is only $120, which is hard to beat, and it's possible that a transformer swap would get me where I want to be.

Naddy active tube or FET ribbon -- I would expect this to be brighter than their passive microphones, not just because of the active circuitry but because the ribbon is only 2mm as opposed to the 6mm listed in their spec sheets. All their ribbons have gotten decent reviews on Gearslutz, but I really need to know how they sound compared to the mics I've actually heard. There's another reason I'm leaning toward this, though (see below).

RM-5 kit: http://www.diyaudiocomponents.com/diy-kit-manuals-rm-5-ribbon-mic. Because If I can build it, why the heck not. My impression of this, and based on some clips, is that it's a little dark. I'm not sure that's where I want to be.

Austin DIY kit: This one sounds brighter to me than the RM-5, but it's also more expensive by almost $100; again, though, this could be a transformer issue, and I can get the RM-5 without the transformer if I can figure out the ideal part to get for that.

I mentioned that there was a reason I was leaning toward the tube mic. It's not so much that I'm like "ooooh tube!" (though I will admit that gets the ole saliva flowin'), but rather that my interface only has two buttons for phantom power, and when I'm using all four inputs, I'll usually end up with 3 active mics, and I'm worried about damaging a passive ribbon mic. Apparently dynamic mics don't have this problem, but I've read about people blowing up a ribbon. Does anyone know anything about that?

Please let me know if there are other mics I should be looking at. If I get the right ribbon, I'll just be one tube condenser mic short of my ideal home recording mic cabinet.

[Haberdasher]

jon i can't be too much help, but i have heard a few opinions from people that the fathead w lundahl sounds quite a bit better.  you could grab the basic model from zenpro and then pick the LL2912 xformer up from k&k.  i think zenpro will also install the xformer in them too, but probably not as cheap as if you diy.

fwiw, i read that modern ribbons frying under phantom power = myth
but keep in mind i'm not an expert

[midwayfair]

jon i can't be too much help, but i have heard a few opinions from people that the fathead w lundahl sounds quite a bit better.  you could grab the basic model from zenpro and then pick the LL2912 xformer up from k&k.  i think zenpro will also install the xformer in them too, but probably not as cheap as if you diy.

fwiw, i read that modern ribbons frying under phantom power = myth
but keep in mind i'm not an expert

Thanks! I saw elsewhere the suggestion of swapping out other mics' transformers with the Lundahl, so it may be that I should just get one of those with whichever mic has the kind of ribbon motor that works best for what I'm after (I'm led to believe that I probably actually want something thicker for a brighter sound, so I was wrong above.)

[rumbletone]

I really like the 906 and Fathead combination for micing cabs. I don't find the Fathead 'dark' per se - it does have somewhat of a classic ribbon sound which smooths and attenuates some high end, but if you don't want that I'd suggest not using a ribbon (though some of the newer designs like the Royer do seem to have more high end response - but yeah they are not cheap!). Also depends on the tone - for retro/vintage sounds I've used just the Fathead by itself, and for more modern/cutting tones I'd reach for the 906 or possibly a 57 (though most of the time I prefer the 906) and the mic pre - I often pair the Fathead with a brighter/tighter pre (like an API) and sometimes pair the 906 with a smoother and arguably darker pre like a 1073. And of course placement factors into the picture too - if combining a ribbon and a non-ribbon dynamic, can position the ribbon pointing closer to the dust cap and the other closer to the edge so the net result may be about equal brightness.

[neve1272]

http://recordinghacks.com/2008/11/01/chinese-ribbon-microphone-designs/

this was a good read as i was in the market some years ago really good info among such prices if you dont have the money to gamble

[jkokura]

I thought the idea on the ribbon mics is that they tend to be darker...

I have a Fathead. I like it.

Jacob

[neve1272]

their are ribbons that can have great effect on certain vocals beyer m160? and long ribbon mic i vocal  an the medium are what i use on guitar cabs

sometimes i use mics and pre's as a pre eq choice.... they are not necessary they just help you get there faster

i can do the job with a 57 and a mackie mixer, just have to take a lot more time

[midwayfair]

Thanks for the advice, everyone.

[lincolnic]

I've read about people blowing up a ribbon. Does anyone know anything about that?

Please let me know if there are other mics I should be looking at. If I get the right ribbon, I'll just be one tube condenser mic short of my ideal home recording mic cabinet.

In practice, you shouldn't send a ribbon mic phantom power because it's a bad habit to get into. Older ribbon mics have different kinds of transformers that can short phantom through the ribbon. The dirty secret of modern ribbon mics is that if the mic has been plugged in properly, using XLR cables that are wired correctly, phantom won't harm the ribbon. With the correct wiring, the DC voltage is balanced across pins 2 and 3 of the XLR, so the ribbon is unharmed. However, if you plug in or unplug the XLR while phantom is on? That can create a short between pin 1 (ground) and pin 2 or 3, which will hit the ribbon with 48 volts and stretch it out (which is very bad). This will also happen if you're in the studio and you accidentally patch a ribbon to a mic pre with phantom on, as the patch cable will be momentarily shorting connections as it's inserted. Not giving ribbon mics phantom power ever is just a way to reinforce the habit of connecting them safely (unless you're using a really old ribbon).

Here's video proof if you don't believe!

There are plenty of old vintage consoles (I'm looking at you, Neve) where phantom power is globally on or off, and they still get used with ribbon mics.

tl;dr If everything in your chain is wired properly and then you turn phantom on, it'll be fine.

[midwayfair]

In practice, you shouldn't send a ribbon mic phantom power because it's a bad habit to get into. Older ribbon mics have different kinds of transformers that can short phantom through the ribbon.

Thanks for the explanation. I still have the problem where my console (Scarlett 18i8) simply doesn't allow me to separate individual mics, though. I'll just have to remember to unplug the mic side first, or turn off the phantom power if I have to use all four mic inputs at once. Or I guess I could build a preamp, but ... lazy.

[jkokura]

I use an Audiobox 44vsl and it has universal Phantom Power. I just power down the 48V, then plug the mic in, then power it back up again. I've had no issues running my Fathead with the phantom power on, whilst running my AT4040.

I'm sure you can do something similar with the Scarlett.

Jacob

[lincolnic]

In practice, you shouldn't send a ribbon mic phantom power because it's a bad habit to get into. Older ribbon mics have different kinds of transformers that can short phantom through the ribbon.

Thanks for the explanation. I still have the problem where my console (Scarlett 18i8) simply doesn't allow me to separate individual mics, though. I'll just have to remember to unplug the mic side first, or turn off the phantom power if I have to use all four mic inputs at once. Or I guess I could build a preamp, but ... lazy.

Global phantom power doesn't mean you can't use ribbons -- just make sure you turn the phantom off before you connect or disconnect the ribbon mics. If you turn it after the ribbon is plugged in and turn it off before disconnecting, you'll be good to go. (Jacob basically said the same thing.)

Also, of the options you're considering, I'd go for the Fathead or the DIY ones (because they're probably fun to build). But if you're afraid that the mic is going to sound dark, maybe a ribbon isn't what you're looking for. Some ribbons are brighter than others, but they're all going to be kind of dark in general. If you do get a Fathead though, I'd recommend going for the Lundahl transformer like others have mentioned. They make nice iron.

[midwayfair]

\But if you're afraid that the mic is going to sound dark, maybe a ribbon isn't what you're looking for. Some ribbons are brighter than others, but they're all going to be kind of dark in general. If you do get a Fathead though, I'd recommend going for the Lundahl transformer like others have mentioned. They make nice iron.

Oh ... I know Ribbons are dark in general. But like I said, I'm kind of spoiled by the Royer, which is definitely brighter than the Fathead by quite a bit. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy with what we got using a Fathead and a large diaphram condenser on the first couple Midway Fair recordings.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Naddys, even based on specs, and how they might compare? There's someone on TGP selling a pair.

I with the enclosures and transformers for mics were a little more accessible. As it is, it's almost as much as an amp to build a mic!

[jkokura]

I have the Fathead without the Luhndahl. I wouldn't mind finding a way to get the transformer myself and installing it if it were cheaper than cost of one straight from Cascade.

Jacob

[lincolnic]

Oh ... I know Ribbons are dark in general. But like I said, I'm kind of spoiled by the Royer, which is definitely brighter than the Fathead by quite a bit. And I'd be lying if I said I wasn't happy with what we got using a Fathead and a large diaphram condenser on the first couple Midway Fair recordings.

Does anyone have an opinion on the Naddys, even based on specs, and how they might compare? There's someone on TGP selling a pair.

I with the enclosures and transformers for mics were a little more accessible. As it is, it's almost as much as an amp to build a mic!

Yeah, Royers are really nice. I've been using them for years (NB: other people's, not my own) and it's wonderful when you can boost a 12k shelf on a ribbon and actually have it do something.

I'm as skeptical of Nady stuff as I am of any other cheap Chinese mics, but YMMV.