What's the legal status of the Decimator right now?

[aion]

I've been getting a lot of requests for a noise gate PCB. I don't want to do the MXR Noise Gate because it's mostly garbage. The PAiA Gator is woefully underdocumented and was not designed for guitar in the first place, plus it crosses the boundaries into attack-delay or Slow Gear territory.

The Decimator has become a pretty common project and has the distinction of being one of the more well-regarded noise gates out there right now. And the ability to sense the dry guitar signal but gate it later on (G-String version) is killer.

Only trouble is the patent. I don't see how they could have been granted a patent on an all-analog circuit with a few op-amps and a VCA, but I guess that's besides the point - knowing that they did, I'm sure it would be extremely easy to tweak the circuit so it no longer violates the patent.

I had to trace the DIY history of the Decimator across a few forums - it was started on DIYSB, but then deleted on fear of the patent infringement stuff. The discussion moved over to FSB where some of it was rehashed, some really interesting info was posted about optimizing the VCA functionality, but then it stopped cold a couple of years ago. There were some references to a cleaned-up version of the Decimator that were in the original DIYSB thread, but those are all long-gone and I couldn't find out whether it was a patent-free version or if it was just an optimization of the circuit with the patented stuff intact.

Did anyone ever come up with a "safe" version of the Decimator? I am aware of the Galego PCB which has made the rounds, but that's a part-for-part clone so it wouldn't work for me.

[GermanCdn]

ISP has been known to enforce their patents fairly aggressively, so I don't know that you really want that kind of grief.  I'm pretty sure others have tried, and lived to wish they had not.

[gtr2]

If it was a good idea...there would be a ready to purchase PCB available....

Josh

[pickdropper]

As others mentioned, it's probably worth giving the Decimator a pass.  More than a few layouts have gone around for that one but ultimately weren't release because of the patent protection.

[marmaliser]

So if say I had 9 spare PCB's I shouldn't sell them ?

[Stomptown]

So if say I had 9 spare PCB's I shouldn't sell them ?

The reason I would caution against this (in addition to above) is that you never know what people will do with the pcb's you sell "under the table" so-to-speak.  The last thing I you want is a decimator clone with one of your layouts to end up on eBay.  It could come back to bite you in the end...

[juansolo]

Ding. It's a bit of a spikey one the Decimator. I think they let the Galego/Slade layout slide as it's an etch and obv a DIY pedal. A proper PCB is possibly going to get attention you don't want. Strictly DIY I don't see a problem. But yeah, if someone tries to then sell it, again, I can see it coming back to bite someone in the ass.

[Mike]

When was the patent issued?

Does anyone have the patent number?

[Govmnt_Lacky]

When was the patent issued?

Does anyone have the patent number?

Pretty sure that was discussed on DIYSB or the other forum.

Wayback machine anyone??

[aion]

When was the patent issued?

Does anyone have the patent number?

Get ready for it. All the related patents owned by James (Buck) Waller:

https://www.google.com/patents/US5124657 (1989)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5263091 (1992)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5493617 (1996)
http://www.google.com/patents/US5736899 (1996)
https://www.google.com/patents/US6091013 (1998)
http://www.google.com/patents/US6944305 (2001)
https://www.google.com/patents/US7957546 (2005)
https://www.google.com/patents/US8842852 (2011)

[GrindCustoms]

When was the patent issued?

Does anyone have the patent number?

Get ready for it. All the related patents owned by James (Buck) Waller:

https://www.google.com/patents/US5124657 (1989)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5263091 (1992)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5493617 (1996)
http://www.google.com/patents/US5736899 (1996)
https://www.google.com/patents/US6091013 (1998)
http://www.google.com/patents/US6944305 (2001)
https://www.google.com/patents/US7957546 (2005)
https://www.google.com/patents/US8842852 (2011)

Looks like everytime they release a new version of the stompbox and rack unit they renew the patent.... clever fuckas....

[pickdropper]

When was the patent issued?

Does anyone have the patent number?

Get ready for it. All the related patents owned by James (Buck) Waller:

https://www.google.com/patents/US5124657 (1989)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5263091 (1992)
https://www.google.com/patents/US5493617 (1996)
http://www.google.com/patents/US5736899 (1996)
https://www.google.com/patents/US6091013 (1998)
http://www.google.com/patents/US6944305 (2001)
https://www.google.com/patents/US7957546 (2005)
https://www.google.com/patents/US8842852 (2011)

Looks like everytime they release a new version of the stompbox and rack unit they renew the patent.... clever fuckas....

I haven't read the patents yet, but design patents can't be renewed.  They expire after 14 years (15 years for new patents now).  After expiration, they are prior art and therefore fair game.

Now, if you come up with a novel idea that is beyond what was in the first patent, you can apply for a new patent (or patents) to cover the new innovation.  This new section restarts the clock, although the original innovation is still prior art after 14 years.

Disclaimer:  I am clearly not a patent attorney.  Somebody who is far more knowledgable than I should feel free to step in at any point.  I only know what I know from too much miserable time spent reviewing patents; a process that has taught me that there is virtually no chance I could survive being a patent attorney.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[BillyBoy]

A twist on the Decimator idea...

I have three Decimator Pro Rack G units.  They are hands down the best noise reduction gear I could find and afford at the time. There are slight differences in pedal and rack versions.  If you get the rack versions, be sure to get the versions that have the ground lift switches on the back.  Some early ones didn't have those.  They can be pretty handy.

I had to get them because I had a *really* bad noise problem at my house.  I tried multiple times over a few years to figure out what the source(s) was and how to fix it, but never figured it out.  Really frustrating.  Shielding for guitars and amps, noiseless pickups, wireless, power conditioners, and all sorts of stuff was tried.  Much money was thrown away.  On bad days, it was so bad I just didn't play. 

Finally, I did what I should have done all along.  I really dug into what can cause noise in audio equipment, what you can do about it, and how to determine what kind of noise you have.  It's a lot to sift through, including a lot of incorrect/useless info.  You quickly fall into a very shady realm of EMF/EMI gadgetry, health aids, energy savings, pseudo-science, paranormal, ghost detectors, and all sorts of unusual items of dubious capability from sellers that often don't look legit.  It's difficult to find facts – everything is just advertising and marketing filled with some gibberish, claims, and tantalizingly-close-to-helpful tidbits.  Again, more research.  I finally plunked down my money for 2 of the 3 types of meters I needed to troubleshoot my situation.  (I didn't get the third one, because I was sure I had that type of noise.)  Anyway, those meters set me back about the price of a nice vintage pedal or two. 

There is not much to those meters.  I'm sure there is talent enough on this forum to build those meters for a fraction of the prices they get for them.  If you avoid the obvious junk, you can get meters that will tell you a lot about your noise problems.  They really do work pretty well.  I found that most fixes fell into one of two categories:  easy to fix/avoid for free or modest cost and difficult to fix at exorbitant cost. That makes most decisions pretty easy    To do a pretty good noise assessment, you need a dirty power meter (plugs into your wall outlets), an EMI/EMF detector, and an RFI (and higher band) detector.  There are various features that make some better/worse, but it isn't very complicated.  You also need a circuit checker, but you can get those for $10 lots of places.  I did not get the RFI detector because I knew I had significant RFI problems, and I knew what to do about that. 

By using those meters, I was finally able to figure out how to fix or avoid a major portion of my noise so that I rarely use my Decimators now.  Instead of getting in legal/patent trouble treating a symptom, build those meters and figure out the real problem and solve it instead! 

In addition to the meters, there is one type of solution that I think would probably work pretty well for some types of noise, but it is pricey and there are only 2-3 companies that make those gadgets.  I think they are very simple devices, far simpler than the meters.  I think they would be candidates for a DIY project, although they run on wall current.

My pedal-building is more enjoyable and goes more smoothly now, too.

Just a thought...

[cooder]

A twist on the Decimator idea...

I have three Decimator Pro Rack G units.  They are hands down the best noise reduction gear I could find and afford at the time. There are slight differences in pedal and rack versions.  If you get the rack versions, be sure to get the versions that have the ground lift switches on the back.  Some early ones didn't have those.  They can be pretty handy.

I had to get them because I had a *really* bad noise problem at my house.  I tried multiple times over a few years to figure out what the source(s) was and how to fix it, but never figured it out.  Really frustrating.  Shielding for guitars and amps, noiseless pickups, wireless, power conditioners, and all sorts of stuff was tried.  Much money was thrown away.  On bad days, it was so bad I just didn't play. 

Finally, I did what I should have done all along.  I really dug into what can cause noise in audio equipment, what you can do about it, and how to determine what kind of noise you have.  It's a lot to sift through, including a lot of incorrect/useless info.  You quickly fall into a very shady realm of EMF/EMI gadgetry, health aids, energy savings, pseudo-science, paranormal, ghost detectors, and all sorts of unusual items of dubious capability from sellers that often don't look legit.  It's difficult to find facts – everything is just advertising and marketing filled with some gibberish, claims, and tantalizingly-close-to-helpful tidbits.  Again, more research.  I finally plunked down my money for 2 of the 3 types of meters I needed to troubleshoot my situation.  (I didn't get the third one, because I was sure I had that type of noise.)  Anyway, those meters set me back about the price of a nice vintage pedal or two. 

There is not much to those meters.  I'm sure there is talent enough on this forum to build those meters for a fraction of the prices they get for them.  If you avoid the obvious junk, you can get meters that will tell you a lot about your noise problems.  They really do work pretty well.  I found that most fixes fell into one of two categories:  easy to fix/avoid for free or modest cost and difficult to fix at exorbitant cost. That makes most decisions pretty easy    To do a pretty good noise assessment, you need a dirty power meter (plugs into your wall outlets), an EMI/EMF detector, and an RFI (and higher band) detector.  There are various features that make some better/worse, but it isn't very complicated.  You also need a circuit checker, but you can get those for $10 lots of places.  I did not get the RFI detector because I knew I had significant RFI problems, and I knew what to do about that. 

By using those meters, I was finally able to figure out how to fix or avoid a major portion of my noise so that I rarely use my Decimators now.  Instead of getting in legal/patent trouble treating a symptom, build those meters and figure out the real problem and solve it instead! 

In addition to the meters, there is one type of solution that I think would probably work pretty well for some types of noise, but it is pricey and there are only 2-3 companies that make those gadgets.  I think they are very simple devices, far simpler than the meters.  I think they would be candidates for a DIY project, although they run on wall current.

My pedal-building is more enjoyable and goes more smoothly now, too.

Just a thought...

Interesting.
Could you elaborate what changes you needed to do to minimize noise? Did you have to change the wiring in the house or setup of wireless appliances or what?
Cheers

[marmaliser]

Maybe somone should tell mooer http://www.cheaperpedals.com/products/mooer-noise-killer-pedal