Saw this over at ILF - Paypal

[playpunk]

Once is enough....


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[stevie1556]

You mean he isn't a real prince?

[pickdropper]

Once is enough....


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Yes, it should've been.

[midwayfair]

I guess I could ask for a check for payment. But it could take a while to get a check from the UK or Australia. And then you have to worry about check fraud. I can hear it now: "You'll get your Eagle files just as soon as your check arrives and then clears my bank. So sit tight for three weeks."

I still prefer PayPal for its immediacy and fluidity across national borders. And I doubt PayPal will honor a contract they are not a party to. And I'm not going to small claims court in some other state or country for the kind of low-dollar value work that I do. If I were doing $5k deals, I'd probably take a downpayment in the form of a money order or something like that. For a couple hundred bucks? Nah.

Money order, then. And it doesn't take three weeks for a letter to arrive from anywhere in the world, and even an international check will clear within a week. If they can't secure a method to pay you in a timely fashion that isn't abusable, it's their problem, not yours. They hired you. If you go to your job, you don't ask your company to pay you via PayPal because it's cheap -- they do it by check or direct deposit, because that gets you your money in a secure manner.

PayPal doesn't have to honor the contract was my point -- it's enforceable under the laws of your state. You have a signed contract, and as long as both of you are in the U.S., it is 100% worth filing an action even for a small claim because you get costs back as well, and I'm pretty sure the action can be filed in your home jurisdiction if that's the governing law -- which means they need to buy a plane ticket to defend.  A contract can also provide you with clear repercussions for non-payment -- personally, I go with voiding the exclusivity and nondisclosure clauses. You have to make it clear up front that it's in their best interest to pay you immediately and finally.

[RobA]

...
-- personally, I go with voiding the exclusivity and nondisclosure clauses. You have to make it clear up front that it's in their best interest to pay you immediately and finally.

This is an important one and to some degree you have built in protections. With software and I assume other creative works done under contract, the actual author maintains copyright until the copyright is explicitly assigned. If it's for something they want to use to make money on and they haven't paid you for the work, withhold the copyright and use it against them.

[playpunk]

I guess I could ask for a check for payment. But it could take a while to get a check from the UK or Australia. And then you have to worry about check fraud. I can hear it now: "You'll get your Eagle files just as soon as your check arrives and then clears my bank. So sit tight for three weeks."

I still prefer PayPal for its immediacy and fluidity across national borders. And I doubt PayPal will honor a contract they are not a party to. And I'm not going to small claims court in some other state or country for the kind of low-dollar value work that I do. If I were doing $5k deals, I'd probably take a downpayment in the form of a money order or something like that. For a couple hundred bucks? Nah.

Money order, then. And it doesn't take three weeks for a letter to arrive from anywhere in the world, and even an international check will clear within a week. If they can't secure a method to pay you in a timely fashion that isn't abusable, it's their problem, not yours. They hired you. If you go to your job, you don't ask your company to pay you via PayPal because it's cheap -- they do it by check or direct deposit, because that gets you your money in a secure manner.

PayPal doesn't have to honor the contract was my point -- it's enforceable under the laws of your state. You have a signed contract, and as long as both of you are in the U.S., it is 100% worth filing an action even for a small claim because you get costs back as well, and I'm pretty sure the action can be filed in your home jurisdiction if that's the governing law -- which means they need to buy a plane ticket to defend.  A contract can also provide you with clear repercussions for non-payment -- personally, I go with voiding the exclusivity and nondisclosure clauses. You have to make it clear up front that it's in their best interest to pay you immediately and finally.

Yeah, but enforcing a judgment would be a pain in the rear end, especially if the defendant is in another state. I do some post judgment collections in my work and it is problematic. If the judgment is "only" several hundred dollars it is not worth it.

I do quite a bit of litigation, and any amounts under forty thousand dollars are difficult for our clients to justify. I had a contractor whose client refused to pay a bill of nearly forty thousand dollars with no justification at all, and it was a major headache recovering a major portion of the amount owing.

With that said, it is possible to get an enforceable judgment at a reasonable cost in small claims court in your state, but those judgments are nearly always appealable to a higher court, and New York (my home state) has extremely lenient rules concerning a defendants non-appearance.

The long and short of it is: don't rely on a court to enforce your agreement unless you want to spend a bunch of money on attorney's fees. Get your money in a secured manner up front and make the other side count the cost of chasing you down instead of the other way round.


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[culturejam]

If they can't secure a method to pay you in a timely fashion that isn't abusable, it's their problem, not yours.

It's my problem if they would prefer to work with someone who does take PayPal instead of a cashier's check sent by carrier pigeon.

Think about it. If you as a buyer have a choice between two equal vendors, and one of them can take payment in 10 minutes while the other will take 10 days...who you gonna pick? Maybe you, Jon, would prefer to mail a check and wait. But just about everyone else is going to go with expedience, all other things being equal. Especially for the small amounts that PCB design usually runs (<$500 per transaction). And that really makes pro se legal action even less likely. Why would I throw even more time away filing motions over such small amounts?

I mean, if I were the world's best pedal PCB designer, maybe I could demand that my clients courier me cash in bundles of small, non-sequential bills. But there are 10 guys on this forum that are better than me, so I'm kind of stuck. Or I could just not get money. But I like money. Quite a bit.

But I'm not going to argue about it anymore. We can agree to disagree on how to mitigate risk. I'll just take my chances with PayPal, which, so far, has not caused me any problems. The Rej situation just really shocked me, and made me start thinking about things.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Tried to look for this just within the thread and it might be a stupid question but...

Does this apply only to websites that accept Paypal as payment or will this apply to eBay transactions as well?

I ask because if one thing is certain it is that a great many people out there will try to get away with as much as possible! If this will apply to eBay purchases then I see a huge increase in returns in the future.

One thing is for sure. EBay and Paypal (same company) need to re-vamp their returns investigations policies. Last I remember, I was told by Paypal that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of all returns cases favor the buyer. So it is almost an invitation for someone to use, abuse, or... In this case.... Steal IP info of a purchase and be guaranteed their money back!

[selfdestroyer]

was reading over this
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#7

7.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:

one of the items is "Custom made items"

Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection, you can file a Dispute and resolve the issue directly with the Seller, however, PayPal will not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim when an item is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.

I wonder if that applies here.

Cody

[GrindCustoms]

Just saw this, about the Chimaera.... i had sent some of those while i was waiting for the said product to be verified.

People who buys our layouts can do whatever they want with them, other than selling them as kits without our permission.

This was a shitty situation, that i won't get in publicly and that is now a thing from the past.

Rej

[culturejam]

Great eye, Cody. That's indeed very interesting.

I'm thinking that all invoices for PCB design work should include the word "custom" as much as possible.

[midwayfair]

was reading over this
https://www.paypal.com/webapps/mpp/ua/useragreement-full#7

7.3 Ineligible Items. PayPal Buyer Protection only applies to PayPal payments for certain tangible, physical goods. Payments for the following are not eligible for reimbursement under PayPal Buyer Protection:

one of the items is "Custom made items"

Even if your payment is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection, you can file a Dispute and resolve the issue directly with the Seller, however, PayPal will not find in your favor if you escalate a Dispute to a Claim when an item is not eligible for PayPal Buyer Protection.

I wonder if that applies here.

Cody

Thanks for finding that, Cody!

[GermanCdn]

One thing is for sure. EBay and Paypal (same company) need to re-vamp their returns investigations policies. Last I remember, I was told by Paypal that somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of all returns cases favor the buyer. So it is almost an invitation for someone to use, abuse, or... In this case.... Steal IP info of a purchase and be guaranteed their money back!

Somehow they're going to have to figure this one out, or they will lose a massive amount of business.  I can see expanding the claim window to say 60 - 90 days for Items Not Received, as there have been a half dozen occurences with me personally where I haven't received something in the 45 day timeframe (in all but one case I eventually got them), and it's easy enough for sellers to protect themselves from it with Delivery Confirmation.

But 180 days for Significantly Not As Described?  Nothing after 6 months of use is as described.  A brand new guitar after six months in no longer new.  If they don't put some rules around it, there will be a different payment method in the not too distant future.

[culturejam]

But 180 days for Significantly Not As Described?  Nothing after 6 months of use is as described.  A brand new guitar after six months in no longer new.  If they don't put some rules around it, there will be a different payment method in the not too distant future.

Paypal will once again be its own company. Ebay is spinning it off. Maybe that will result is more sane policies going forward.