Saw this over at ILF - Paypal

[Scruffie]

Apparently Paypal are extending the time buyers can make disputes from 45 days to 180 days, don't think i'll be selling anything to anyone I don't know from now on...

[stevie1556]

I heard somewhere it was 100 days. Either way, it makes selling with PayPal even worse then it already is!

[Scruffie]

Yup, 60 days I could get, some things do take 2 months to arrive but this is just open to abuse.

Paypal seems to not realise (care) that not all sellers are big businesses and that there's a lot of dishonest people and in some cases just unreasonable people out there.

Half a year after selling something when your circumstances may be completely different to when you sold something you could get a surprise account freezing and debt warnings.

[lars]

Oy. In other words they've just extended the "buyer's remorse" period. Sorry, I'm not running a rental/borrowing service for my items.

[culturejam]

If they would create a new category of payment type for "goods to be delivered when ready at a future date" and make that 180 days to dispute...I'd be fine with that. It would make a lot of sense, actually.

But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally fucked by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.

Google Wallet seems okay, but it doesn't seem to have the same sort of overall experience. I can't figure out how to add a simple "buy it now" button to a web page, for example.

[juansolo]

If they would create a new category of payment type for "goods to be delivered when ready at a future date" and make that 180 days to dispute...I'd be fine with that. It would make a lot of sense, actually.

But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally fucked by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.

Google Wallet seems okay, but it doesn't seem to have the same sort of overall experience. I can't figure out how to add a simple "buy it now" button to a web page, for example.

Need to keep an eye on that guy if he starts selling things with the designs he received.

EDIT: Adding insult to injury, his first klone is a Chimera...

The saddest thing is that he's obviously a very talented builder and his work would go down well here. Quite why he decided to f**k Rej over is beyond me

[TGP39]

We have a saying at the Delta house. Don't get mad, get even. I think I'll buy one of his Klones using Paypal. Unfortunately, I'm not that kind of person, but Rej deserves way better than that. Everything I have purchased from Rej has come with impeccable service. He responds to every email and goes out of his way to help fellow builders any way he can.  We need to find a different online pay service. Steve.

[aion]

But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally f---ed by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.

What exactly happened with this? Is there a thread someplace here or at BYOC?

[Govmnt_Lacky]

But having half a year to return something that shipped within a few days is insane. And what about services, such as PCB design? You can't "return" the work product. Rej just got royally f---ed by some douchebag that filed a dispute *after* he'd given the guy the deliverables. And that was only 30 days in. I can't imagine having that hang over my head for half a year.

What exactly happened with this? Is there a thread someplace here or at BYOC?

Yeas. What exactly happened here. I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. You are saying someone filed a dispute AFTER they received the product? When else would they file it?

More deets if you please... 

P.S. Regardless of the info... I'm in Rej's corner. Awesome guy...

EDIT: Just to add... I can understand the heartache. There are a LOT of unscrupulous buyers out there. I just had a guy commit to a purchase. The guy then messaged me saying that he "accidentally" purchased the product when he meant to buy another one of my products. I went ahead and cancelled the transaction to be a good guy. YEP... never bought the other one and no responses to messages. Just as well though... if I would have made him follow through with the purchase he probably would have done a buyer's remorse return anyways... 

[culturejam]

Yeas. What exactly happened here. I don't understand the point you are trying to make here. You are saying someone filed a dispute AFTER they received the product? When else would they file it?

People can file a dispute for products/services they haven't received within the agreed-upon delivery time. If they don't do it within the window, they are screwed. So it makes sense to file a dispute BEFORE you receive a product that doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

In the case of PCB design, it's a bit trickier.

The way I work is I take no money until the design is completely done. I let the customer review image files of the schematic and layout and then they approve the work. Then I bill them. After they pay, I send them the Eagle files or gerbers (or both). Once they have the files, there's no way to un-ring the bell; there's no "returning" digital products like you could return a pedal or guitar.

So let's say I do some work for a client. They like the design, they pay me, and then I send them the files. Four months later the client needs money for cocaine or hookers or whatever, so he files a dispute on the payment to me claiming the work was bad or whatever. He gets his money back AND he's got the work product I created (and has ostensibly been making money on it for the last four months). He got free PCB design work, I got fucked on a long time-delay.

That's more or less what happened to Rej (only the time frame was shorter). I'm not saying any more about his situation because it's his deal to discuss (or not). But you can see where a very long dispute window + always siding with buyers is bad news for people who provide digital services.

[midwayfair]

Tip for electronic products: Contracts. Clear ones, detailing what's being delivered, when, and for how much. Regardless of who PayPal sides with, they can't supercede your ability to form a contract with another person. You can still seek restitution even if PayPal refunds their payment.

Also: Checks. FFS, if you don't trust each other to be paid with a check when doing design work, PayPal refunding your payment should be the least of your worries.

[culturejam]

I guess I could ask for a check for payment. But it could take a while to get a check from the UK or Australia. And then you have to worry about check fraud. I can hear it now: "You'll get your Eagle files just as soon as your check arrives and then clears my bank. So sit tight for three weeks."

I still prefer PayPal for its immediacy and fluidity across national borders. And I doubt PayPal will honor a contract they are not a party to. And I'm not going to small claims court in some other state or country for the kind of low-dollar value work that I do. If I were doing $5k deals, I'd probably take a downpayment in the form of a money order or something like that. For a couple hundred bucks? Nah.

[playpunk]

Wire transfer is fast too.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[culturejam]

Wire transfer is fast too.

Whenever I read "wire transfer", I immediately think about Nigerian princes offering me the opportunity of a lifetime.

[pickdropper]

Wire transfer is fast too.

Whenever I read "wire transfer", I immediately think about Nigerian princes offering me the opportunity of a lifetime.

I'll never be fooled by that guy again.