Scottish Independence: What say ye?

[culturejam]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/16/world/europe/many-questions-arise-from-scottish-independence-vote.html?_r=0

This whole idea of Scottish secession has my interest piqued. As an American, the bulk of my insight on Anglo-Scottish relations comes from watching Braveheart 127 times. So I'm completely unqualified to have an opinion, but as an America, that qualifies me to have an opinion and vigorously defend it. 

I'm curious to see what our UK folks have to say on the matter. I'm sure we can keep it civil. 


Here's a tidbit from the above article that I do feel qualified to comment on:

If Scotland votes "yes," it will take 18 months for independence to come to fruition. There is likely to be continued negotiation over a number of money matters.

18 months, my arse!    If my company's dealings with UK government is any indication, it will be 10 years at least before the deal would be finalized.

[GermanCdn]

It's a complex situation, that's for sure.  Speaking as a Canadian who has gone through a number of referendums with regards to Quebec succession, it seems like it's a generational thing a lot of times.  For example, the first time in my lifetime that there was a succession vote (late 80s IIRC), the vote was really close, the second vote (mid 90s), not so much, the last couple of times it even gets talked about there doesn't seem to be much interest behind it.  My point to that is this - what might seem like a good idea today may not in fact be a good idea later.

The economic impact will be a mess.  How do you divide up proportional amounts of debt and assets?  In a country as young as Canada, you could do it with a per capita basis (this is where most people go "Ok, we'll stop talking about leaving"), but in countries with centuries of developed history, it can't be that cut and dry I would imagine.  And typically there's expected to be an exodus of businesses following succession, particularly head offices, as they prefer to have stable economic/tax structures in order to plan future endeavors.

Funny story - they had a Scottish economist on the morning radio news show discussing the issue this morning.  His name - Ronald McDonald.  Now, unless my middle name was Ol', I'd probably go by it, at least professionally.

[raulduke]

My opinion is that when it comes to the English, the Scottish are always prepared to cut off their nose to spite their face.

The scots still dislike the English with a passion after all these years, so if they want independence, then good luck to them

Please note the comments above should be taken with a large pinch of salt

[midwayfair]

How do you divide up proportional amounts of debt and assets?

Eh, "Scotland" is practically an 18th century invention anyway. Sort of like tartan patterns and whisky.

Personally, as someone with no horse in this race, I'm rooting for Scottish independence. Sean Connery's been overpaying for his Scotch for far too long.

Plus if their economy tanks, it'll be a cheaper vacation if I ever decide to go.

[stevie1556]

As someone who is English,  I say they should go independent as I personally think England could potentially be better off.  I can't see it happening though, they would lose the sterling currency, wouldn't have a army/air force/navy, would need to apply for EU membership which would taken years, their economy would be absolutely ruined with a lot of job losses, their banks are already trying to change the law so they can transfer their head offices to London (their banks add about £8.8bn to their economy I believe), their taxes would increase, a lot of England based retailers so that trading up there would cost more money which would be passed onto the consumer, and they would be plunged back into a massive recession. There are a lot of other negatives, but I believe these are a lot of the main ones. Even if the vote goes no, their parliament will get more powers, which is pointless bearing in mind we are supposed to all live in the UK.

[m-Kresol]

I'm not really informed on the matter at hand, but I have a strong feeling in my gut saying it doesn't make sense to be independent. I'm really curious on how it will turn out and if they'd go through with it, if they vote for "independence".

[muddyfox]

It seems to me that national pride very often trumps any and all reason, no matter the consequences.

[GermanCdn]

How do you divide up proportional amounts of debt and assets?

Eh, "Scotland" is practically an 18th century invention anyway. Sort of like tartan patterns and whisky.

Personally, as someone with no horse in this race, I'm rooting for Scottish independence. Sean Connery's been overpaying for his Scotch for far too long.

Plus if their economy tanks, it'll be a cheaper vacation if I ever decide to go.

That's some funny stuff.  He and Rick Mercer should do a show together and do a bit.

[m-Kresol]

Hell yes, I loved that guy in Community. I'm just looking up a few old episodes. Thanks Jon!

[Muadzin]

From what I can gather, as we Dutch have the BBC on our cable network, there was an earlier referendum in the late 1970's, where the Scots were told 'vote no, and you will get a good deal'. Of course the good deal they got was 12 years of Margaret Thatcher and she used her massive majority from her English MP's (no Scot ever votes Tory) to f*** Scotland over 10x harder then Edward Longshanks ever did. So I think I can understand why Scots nowadays don't have much faith in yet another Tory government, which they again didn't vote for, making them all sorts of promises if only they will vote no again.

Personally I blame football (soccer for you American heathens). For some strange reason the UK is the only country in the world that divides itself up come a European or a World Cup. Since Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are too small only England makes it to those championships. And what should be an occasion for a whole country to come together now only serves to cause further division. I mean, just look at Spain. The Basques and the Catalans want independence there too and the rivalry between Madrid and Barcalona is bitter. But when the national football teams plays, it has players from the entire country and the whole country unites. Maybe if the UK had sent one British team instead of four separate ones, this charade could have been avoided. And maybe it would have won more often as well.

[cooder]

The underlying question that I find really interesting is that the whole thing of falling apart into smaller national/tribal territories worldwide seems to give mostly an illusion of more self-determination.
Meanwhile globalisation is seemingly a greater actual force in determining everyday life and surpasses the power of individual governments anyway.
Take the TPPA (Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement), it will allow big multinationals to sue governments to obey international trade rules (which are heavily influenced by lobbying of multinational companies) rather than having their own territorial rights.
Europe, the UK etc will have or put similar stuff in place.
So far for independance day...
Just my two cents...

[raulduke]

From what I can gather, as we Dutch have the BBC on our cable network, there was an earlier referendum in the late 1970's, where the Scots were told 'vote no, and you will get a good deal'. Of course the good deal they got was 12 years of Margaret Thatcher and she used her massive majority from her English MP's (no Scot ever votes Tory) to f*** Scotland over 10x harder then Edward Longshanks ever did. So I think I can understand why Scots nowadays don't have much faith in yet another Tory government, which they again didn't vote for, making them all sorts of promises if only they will vote no again.

Personally I blame football (soccer for you American heathens). For some strange reason the UK is the only country in the world that divides itself up come a European or a World Cup. Since Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland are too small only England makes it to those championships. And what should be an occasion for a whole country to come together now only serves to cause further division.

Sorry but that is a load of old bollocks mate.

Thatcher is always wheeled out as the convenient cause of all the countries ills but the reality is a bit more complicated and layered than that...

The animosity (or whats actually left beyond banter) between the scots and English goes back thousands of years and cannot be attributed to once specific event, time period or political party.

Football doesn't really have anything to do with it either apart from the banter that goes with it. Friendly rivalry rather than pure hatred to be honest. We are all shite and we all know it; just different levels of shite!

It is also funny that 'long shanks' is now considered a psychotic tyrant, who had vendetta against a minority people... because Mel Gibson says so

[Blues Healer]

as much as I love a lot of English heritage( Battle of Hastings, Magna Carta), the "upper crust" still show vestigial signs of a class-conscious society, clinging to the out-moded glory of colonialization

the Scots, on the other hand, have never impressed me as snobs ... except of course, unless it comes to the Irish

[pickdropper]

As lang as th' mcewans doesn't chaynge, it doesn't pure maiter tae me.

[rullywowr]

"Freeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeedooooooooom!"