Help, reselling

[pickdropper]

Are the outputs balanced in the original Lovetone?  Were yours wired that way?  It seems like that would be an obvious thing that could be verified.

As far as the output level, that's a trickier one as there certainly can be some variability between builds.  It sounds like the Japanese buyer is looking for an exact repro of the one he has played through, which may or may not be realistic.

Outputs in the original the "time" out is left floating, but I found that added ground loop hum, so jumpered the grounds. It was thoroughly tested, and I did the same to my original lovetone.

Regards output level, thats set by the Input Gain knob, which acts globally in bypass also, and it (as Gov stated) always goes above "unity" (if you had the pedal in a true bypass loop for example, you could jump your levels with it). Now, its likely that the IP gain knob has some variabiltiy as pots vary 20% based on the position in rotation relative to resistance and therefore output, so that might be part of th japanese guys greivance.

anyway, worst case, german guy gets it back (his prerogative) sends to me, its genuinely fucked in which case I can fix it, or I can offer the german guy a pro-rata refund and sell it to any number of other people who solicit me asking for ?flanger clones :S

That doesn't really sound like a defective pedal to me, but I am far less familiar with the Lovetone stuff.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

All of this just reaks of "Buyer's remorse!" 

Like I said before... I could possibly understand the problem with the balanced outputs BUT.... the volume issue and mono/stereo switch issue I think are BS and can probably be chalked up to the user in Japan not knowing how to use it.

I'm willing to bet that the guy in Japan DOES NOT own or has ever owned an original and just doesn't know how to use it correctly! 

#1 question to guy in Japan - "Do you have the ??Flanger user's manual?".... maybe in Japanese?

[flanagan0718]

Maybe a partial refund would be the easiest route. Then you could wash your hands of the whole thing. Either way it sounds like the guys in Germany needs to straighten out his situation first. You are not obligated to fix the pedal now that it has gone to a third and 1/2 way around the world. It would be considered kind of you to look but you are not obligated.
I totally agree with Lackey on the "Buyer's Remorse" thing. Plus aren't they using it with keyboards? Are they 100% sure their out on the keyboard is balanced?

[midwayfair]

I think a builder should stand behind their work, always, unless they have sold off their soldering iron and trashed all their parts and folded up the card table.

You have a stated warranty period that has expired, so it's fine to charge a fee and costs to repair the pedal and you should expect the buyer to pay shipping both ways, but you should not tell him that you won't fix it.

The main thing I think you should do is explain that because it will be so expensive to ship round trip and he's risking a bench fee if there isn't a fault is ask him to take a picture of the inside of the pedal, and ask if he can shoot a short video showing the problem and the settings on which it happens. This will tell you two things: (1) Did something break? Or did he break something? (2) Is he actually doing it wrong? -- And you find out WITHOUT getting the pedal in hand while sounding like you have his best interests at heart. (And you should have his best interests at heart, because he's now the owner of your work, after all.) If it's actually a simply problem and actually something broken, you might even be able to suggest to the guy a way to fix it himself or locally to save him the shipping costs. If it isn't broken, you can explain, and send him a copy of the manual to prove it, exactly what he's doing wrong. The guy from Germany will also have confirmation from this that the pedal isn't broken, to avoid an ebay dispute. The Japanese guy either learns how to use his pedal or learns that sometimes you have to live with your purchases. Everyone wins.

I think this thread would be a perfect link for anyone who thinks that it's a good idea to start selling their stuff, just as an example that even a meticulous, basically perfect build tested against a working example and sold with an expressed warranty can still cause problems years later.

Anyway, that's what *I* would do, because it's what I think everyone should do.

[culturejam]

I think the Japanese guy should contact you directly and ask about his options for repair. He either must take ownership of the pedal and let the German guy off the hook (transaction is completed), or he needs to return it to the German guy and get a refund.

The current situation is convoluted and a bit inappropriate.

[LaceSensor]

return it to the German guy and get a refund.

Im kinda happier with this than the other option, because its clear this guy in Japan is hard to communicate with at best, and at worst has no idea how the pedal works.

I think a builder should stand behind their work

yeah im totally happy to help out here, but heaven knows whats happened to it in the last 3 months and shipping around the world.
I think asking for photos and videos from the guy in Japan is plausible but a lot of hassle, when really his agreivance is with the german guy who for all I know sold him an abused or poorly packed pedal. :S

[jaidee]

LaceSensor, I suggest that you take immediate steps to print off the description posted by the German guy when he relisted the pedal.  Given that he achieved a sale to the Japanese guy, I assume that the pedal was listed in glowing terms, as fully functional, etc, etc.  As such you can make the points that he had no complaint about the pedal during his period of ownership, and that at the time he sold the pedal to a third party it was, by his own description, fully functional.  You have no control over how he has packed the pedal when sending it half way round the world, or the perceptions of the buyer he has negotiated the sale to.

I assume, given the somewhat protracted history, that the ebay/PayPal dispute periods have long since expired.

I have not yet built or used a Lovetone Flanger but assume that it is at least as quirky as any other Lovetone Pedal.  Settings are critical and there is clearly scope for component tolerances to result in performance/sound differences between models.

My overall impression is that the German guy is taking the piss by complaining to you about his failure to give satisfaction to his customer.

[GammaFlex]

I've worked in retail my whole life. The customers who are annoyed will be annoyed if they've made up their mind. When my company offers service on an item it is applicable to the original purchaser only. I've had numerous customers come in and say that they bought x and x instrument off of x and x person and want the warranty service when it clearly states that it applies only to the original buyer.

Ian, in your situation if you're up to fixing it, I would offer to let the japanese gentleman return it to the german gentleman. Then for a fee have your german customer mail it back to you with a repair fee (whatever you think is fair) Then if the german sir still wants it send it back, but like you said you can easily find another customer it sounds like.

In the end though, as the builder you have the right to do what you wish. If it were me, I wouldn't offer to service it if the original buyer had sold it. I would ask for a fee/shipping costs then it'd be more worthwhile and you'll still be able to preserve your reputation.

[LaceSensor]

LaceSensor, I suggest that you take immediate steps to print off the description posted by the German guy when he relisted the pedal.  Given that he achieved a sale to the Japanese guy, I assume that the pedal was listed in glowing terms, as fully functional, etc, etc.  As such you can make the points that he had no complaint about the pedal during his period of ownership, and that at the time he sold the pedal to a third party it was, by his own description, fully functional.  You have no control over how he has packed the pedal when sending it half way round the world, or the perceptions of the buyer he has negotiated the sale to.

I assume, given the somewhat protracted history, that the ebay/PayPal dispute periods have long since expired.

I have not yet built or used a Lovetone Flanger but assume that it is at least as quirky as any other Lovetone Pedal.  Settings are critical and there is clearly scope for component tolerances to result in performance/sound differences between models.

My overall impression is that the German guy is taking the piss by complaining to you about his failure to give satisfaction to his customer.

I sold the pedal to the german guy in early march, and had many emails back and forth about how to use it, how to set the internal regen/oscillation calibration etc etc. He was happy with it. Then he emailed me saying he didnt want it anymore and did I know anyone to buy it, and showed me his ebay link.

He copied and pasted my original description on the ebay listing.
Paypal dispute period is 45 days.

FWIW the flanger is the "touchiest" and "quirkiest" of all lovetones. Tiny incremental changes to the knobs drastically alter the sound.

[LaceSensor]

For interests sake, here are the transcripts of the Japanese chap:


1:
I just received the box very clean and today I checked the pedal.
Unfortunately, I believe this one has some defects.
I will try to explain some of them.

The over all Volume level is low compared to original and not as described on the manual either.
The bypass level is not able to obtain equal volume.
And the effect balance between Time Out jack and Space(d) Out jack is not near equal either.
This Space(d) mono out is the main usual output should be used but the sound of the effect is too weak compared to the effect at the TimeOut output.
Normal input level of the source is very low when its on bypass at the TimeOut output compared to the Space(d) out mono output...
So, it's the other way around between two of the outputs.
The Mono-Stereo Switch is not functioning.

So, this one is not functioning as it supposed to nor described.
I think you'd understand and should get it fixed.

I'm sorry to tell you but I need to return...
Please give me a reply.


2:

Thank you for your reply.
I know you don't have the original to compare to but
I'm speaking of the effects in general, that level should
have balanced between bypass and the effect, etc.
You don't have to compare it to the original to know that the overall volume differences and weirdness.
You should hear some decent level of flange in effect before it
oscillates, too.
The input level knob should be set at around noon for guitar but,
it's not enough even if it's set at max. Lower for line use but
the samething should occur that difference between two outputs
are too big...
I'm sorry that I'm repeating the same explanations.
You're a musician uses modular synthesizers so
I thought you kind of knew what's wrong with it.

It's too expensive for me to keep something at this condtions, you know?
I purchased the guaranteed clone sounding pedal of the
original at that price but now it willl take too much hassle to obtain.
I think you should send it back to the builder if it's almost new and
came like that. Because you can't sell the device claiming it to be
exact copy of the original and left sounding as this.
Maybe you should have got it fixed first and hear it before you thought it didn't suit you, or sold it as broken.
(I know you're saying you did not think it's broken but did not test further, either)
It's now not as original nor unit that has decent effect.
It's broken or never was as original, I don't know.

I would still like to return from these reasons...
I'm sorry. Just too expensive for the broken unit.

Kind regards,

[LaceSensor]

thinking on, I recall the german guy wanting to calibrate it for 12v operation.
If he did that, and didnt set it back to 9v, then this Japanese dude might have issues with the regeneration/oscialltion
He seems to say it doesnt have much range before feedback kicks in which would make sense if the trim is set for 12v

still, that doesnt explain at all the input gain issue

Ive told him to get the pedal back and sort out his ebay dispute then I will do right by him and check/repair the pedal
If its working normally, I will ship it back at his expense. If not, he pays shipping. No bench fee.

I dont see how I can be fairer than that.

[juansolo]

German guy: Get the unit back and refund cost of unit. Determine if it's borked. If not (likely) do not refund postage.

He should then take it from there. This is just usual eBay bullshit. Could be buyers remorse... Without the unit you just don't know and eBay is stacked so much in the buyers favour it's just not worth contesting it.

Again, this is all advice for the German guy. Lace shouldn't even be involved at this point.

THEN, and only then, should the German engage Lace. You need to get eBay out of the picture. It means that potentially the Japanese guy is screwing him over, sure. But there's not a damn thing you can do about that.

Once that's sorted then you can determine what to do next. Sadly it's the machinations of eBay that make this complicated. All it takes is a stubborn/unrealistic/arsehole buyer to screw the seller over royally. The buyer doesn't want the pedal, he wants a refund. Right or wrong, in this instance the German guy should give it to him and add him to the banned bidder list (as should Lace and everyone else for that matter).

eBay is a nightmare for sellers these days.

[juansolo]

thinking on, I recall the german guy wanting to calibrate it for 12v operation.
If he did that, and didnt set it back to 9v, then this Japanese dude might have issues with the regeneration/oscialltion
He seems to say it doesnt have much range before feedback kicks in which would make sense if the trim is set for 12v

still, that doesnt explain at all the input gain issue

Ive told him to get the pedal back and sort out his ebay dispute then I will do right by him and check/repair the pedal
If its working normally, I will ship it back at his expense. If not, he pays shipping. No bench fee.

I dont see how I can be fairer than that.

^this is the correct course of action in this situation IMO.

[culturejam]

I dont see how I can be fairer than that.

Me either. Well done.

[LaceSensor]

group hug
thanks for the therapy and sanity check, y'all

coincidentally about a week ago I decided the last few pedals Ive built will be my final ones for the forseeable so its regrettable that this issue has raised its head now and taught me a lesson for (minor) profiteering on ebay