4 Horsemen - Refractors

[Jabulani Jonny]

Simply WOW !!!!..One question though - Why Stereo Jack if no Battery ?

The short answer is that I had several left over from an order and not enough Mono jacks. Just reordered a bunch of mono's though.

Those knobs are great. Where did you get them from?

Hey Bill, these are from Smallbear:  Black Vintage



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[pryde]

Man I love those. Fantastic work. You are going to have some thrilled people who take delivery of those beauties 

[GrindCustoms]

Really nice execution, now seeing what you had planned, you definitly choose the right layout for you need

Yeah I didn't have any 8n2's so I went with 4n7's for tone cap. A little closer anyway.

And to be fair, GrindCustom's Chimaera is the exact same schematic, just without PCB mount pots.

Those look great. I just finished a Refractor build. It is the best sounding Klone I have built so far. I used Tayda 1N270's and 8N2 for the tone cap in place of 3N9. Getting ready to build a Refractor Afterlife combo.

I don't want to start any war or «cold comments» here.... but that's an aspect about kloning that struck me a nerve....

Everytime i see someone a DIYer or a Commercial Kloner like AF, Stud.. name it! Stating that they have the best sounding klone out there i just get laughing really hard and find it miserable....(sorry)

ALL of the klone layouts are made from the SAME reversed engineered schematic....

The only single thing that can make a difference between two layouts is the tolerance of the component used once piled up and the quality of the components you use.... let say that you use Tayda TL072.. yes they work, but they are B-stock... so slightly off-spec...

I just don't understand why we see that statement pop in DIY environement.. with the amount of these builts that have been posted with time... and people with greater notoriety than me that have commented the same thing that i've just said.

Sorry for this rant, but i thought that the DIY community could be spared of this with time...

Rej

[Jabulani Jonny]

Agreed and amen.  Though there are some that are more Klon'ish and not exactly straight replicas of the same schematic, based on my extremely limited knowledge of some of the ones out there. 

[GrindCustoms]

Agreed and amen.  Though there are some that are more Klon'ish and not exactly straight replicas of the same schematic, based on my extremely limited knowledge of some of the ones out there.

True, but those are'nt Klones... they are klonish OD.. like the Kalamazoo, KingSlayer, etc...

But when comparing apples to apples, they're all the same. To me there's nothing more factual than a schematic, there's no «grey zone», just the interaction between physical elements.

[pickdropper]

Really nice execution, now seeing what you had planned, you definitly choose the right layout for you need

Yeah I didn't have any 8n2's so I went with 4n7's for tone cap. A little closer anyway.

And to be fair, GrindCustom's Chimaera is the exact same schematic, just without PCB mount pots.

Those look great. I just finished a Refractor build. It is the best sounding Klone I have built so far. I used Tayda 1N270's and 8N2 for the tone cap in place of 3N9. Getting ready to build a Refractor Afterlife combo.

I don't want to start any war or «cold comments» here.... but that's an aspect about kloning that struck me a nerve....

Everytime i see someone a DIYer or a Commercial Kloner like AF, Stud.. name it! Stating that they have the best sounding klone out there i just get laughing really hard and find it miserable....(sorry)

ALL of the klone layouts are made from the SAME reversed engineered schematic....

The only single thing that can make a difference between two layouts is the tolerance of the component used once piled up and the quality of the components you use.... let say that you use Tayda TL072.. yes they work, but they are B-stock... so slightly off-spec...

I just don't understand why we see that statement pop in DIY environement.. with the amount of these builts that have been posted with time... and people with greater notoriety than me that have commented the same thing that i've just said.

Sorry for this rant, but i thought that the DIY community could be spared of this with time...

Rej

It's funnier when they compare Klones that are built on the same board.  :-)

Board layout can certainly make a difference if it isn't done well, but I suspect that isn't what is going on here.  Component choice and tolerances are probably more likely at play.  Hell, the original Klons didn't all sound the same, either.

[aion]

Those look great. I just finished a Refractor build. It is the best sounding Klone I have built so far. I used Tayda 1N270's and 8N2 for the tone cap in place of 3N9. Getting ready to build a Refractor Afterlife combo.

I don't want to start any war or «cold comments» here.... but that's an aspect about kloning that struck me a nerve....

Everytime i see someone a DIYer or a Commercial Kloner like AF, Stud.. name it! Stating that they have the best sounding klone out there i just get laughing really hard and find it miserable....(sorry)

ALL of the klone layouts are made from the SAME reversed engineered schematic....

The only single thing that can make a difference between two layouts is the tolerance of the component used once piled up and the quality of the components you use.... let say that you use Tayda TL072.. yes they work, but they are B-stock... so slightly off-spec...

I just don't understand why we see that statement pop in DIY environement.. with the amount of these builts that have been posted with time... and people with greater notoriety than me that have commented the same thing that i've just said.

Sorry for this rant, but i thought that the DIY community could be spared of this with time...

Rej

Fully agree - but we might have misunderstood Marvin, in that he was just comparing this build against his other Centaur builds, as opposed to saying the Refractor sounds better than other DIY Centaur projects from other people. It could have just been a matter of using different diodes or different types of capacitors (i.e. film instead of ceramic for the weird pF values) or something.

[pickdropper]

Those look great. I just finished a Refractor build. It is the best sounding Klone I have built so far. I used Tayda 1N270's and 8N2 for the tone cap in place of 3N9. Getting ready to build a Refractor Afterlife combo.

I don't want to start any war or «cold comments» here.... but that's an aspect about kloning that struck me a nerve....

Everytime i see someone a DIYer or a Commercial Kloner like AF, Stud.. name it! Stating that they have the best sounding klone out there i just get laughing really hard and find it miserable....(sorry)

ALL of the klone layouts are made from the SAME reversed engineered schematic....

The only single thing that can make a difference between two layouts is the tolerance of the component used once piled up and the quality of the components you use.... let say that you use Tayda TL072.. yes they work, but they are B-stock... so slightly off-spec...

I just don't understand why we see that statement pop in DIY environement.. with the amount of these builts that have been posted with time... and people with greater notoriety than me that have commented the same thing that i've just said.

Sorry for this rant, but i thought that the DIY community could be spared of this with time...

Rej

Fully agree - but we might have misunderstood Marvin, in that he was just comparing this build against his other Centaur builds, as opposed to saying the Refractor sounds better than other DIY Centaur projects from other people. It could have just been a matter of using different diodes or different types of capacitors (i.e. film instead of ceramic for the weird pF values) or something.

Yep, particularly since he referred to using 1n270s and an 8n2 cap for the tone cap (which JuanSolo and Cleggy have talked about for a while now).

[mjcyates]

Fully agree - but we might have misunderstood Marvin, in that he was just comparing this build against his other Centaur builds, as opposed to saying the Refractor sounds better than other DIY Centaur projects from other people. It could have just been a matter of using different diodes or different types of capacitors (i.e. film instead of ceramic for the weird pF values) or something.

Yes I wasn't intending to say that the Refractor board was in anyway superior to any other Klone board. Just saying that of the ones that I have built (Sunking, Minitaur, Chimaera TB, etc.) for whatever reason, this one was the best sounding of the bunch for me. All obviously very similar but this one is on my board where as all the others were sold. Sorry for stirring up a little bit of a hornets nest. Discussion of this circuit always seems to create controversy.

[pickdropper]

I actually think it's an interesting discussion.  I don't think there is anything wrong with you bringing it up at all.

[peAk]

Those look slick!!

[GrindCustoms]

My rant was'nt pointing anyone in particular, all my excuses if it looked like i was adressing this message to Marvin, it's not the case.

If an individual changes some of the values to fine tune the circuit to what he thinks makes it closer to the original, that's part of the interpretation and the individual perception of what he hears. Just like components, we as human also have our tolerance that piles up and gives our opinion about a said subject. None of us hear the same.

These circuits being low voltage, low current, we would need to have an intense awkward layout if based on the same schematic to make a real measurable difference in sound... ...other than the component tolerance piling up.

I probably posted this rant in the wrong forum, this was'nt the place to discuss about that because it could go on and on.

Still is, that i'm curious and that i like to be proven wrong simply because you acquire new knowledge after. Once Brian releases is new Sunking layout, i'm willing to send one of my Chimaera pcb, purchase a Refraktor and SunkingII with 3 complete set of component with all equal measured pots and diodes and send that whole package to someone who has the equipement to compare and measure the 3 layouts.

That way, science will speak by itself.

Rej

[GrindCustoms]

Fully agree - but we might have misunderstood Marvin, in that he was just comparing this build against his other Centaur builds, as opposed to saying the Refractor sounds better than other DIY Centaur projects from other people. It could have just been a matter of using different diodes or different types of capacitors (i.e. film instead of ceramic for the weird pF values) or something.

Yes I wasn't intending to say that the Refractor board was in anyway superior to any other Klone board. Just saying that of the ones that I have built (Sunking, Minitaur, Chimaera TB, etc.) for whatever reason, this one was the best sounding of the bunch for me. All obviously very similar but this one is on my board where as all the others were sold. Sorry for stirring up a little bit of a hornets nest. Discussion of this circuit always seems to create controversy.

I have'nt perceive anything as an offense, it's simply a subject that i find sketchy and i started to rant about it...

I've built a shitons of klones and yes it have happened to me that i was like..HOLY SHIT!! this one sounds so good, just had a little something more even if built with all the same stuff i've used before, main reason why i'm again bragging about tolerance piling up....

Hope it's all cool.

Rej

[mjcyates]

Definitely cool!

[Jabulani Jonny]

Absolutely cool and a great discussion.  BTW, did you guys see those badass overdrives at the start of this thread?!  I mean...yeah baby!