FatPants 2013: do I need the buffer for my personal situation ?

[Cub]

Hello there !

My first post, since I can get answers to nearly all my questions by just using the search function.

I've ordered a FatPants - 2013 ed. board to bolt in my rack. It won't be the first thing in the chain and that's why I'm not sure if I should build it with or without the buffer.

Guitar -> Sennheiser wireless transmitter and receiver -> Klon clone (always on) -> FatPants -> Fuzz of some sort (either a Muff or a silicon Tone Bender) -> Preamp

What would you good people advise ?

thanks,

Cub

[micromegas]

Is the Klon clone already buffered or true bypass?

[micromegas]

anyway, keep in mind that a buffer before a fuzz may change the sound of it (depending on the fuzz you're using).
If you google "buffer before fuzz" you can find some info about it.

[micromegas]

sorry, this is my 3rd post here, but this is how my mind works.....

I took a look into the FP doc and I think you can add a switch to  toggle between buffered and true bypass. Many folks here have done it with other designs so they could be a better help than me.

[micromegas]

Also, forgive my rudeness.

Welcome to the forum Cub.

You can make a second post by presenting yourself here, if you want: http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=892.msg5614#msg5614

[Cub]

Thanks for the replies and the warm welcome !

The Klon is buffered but it's always on, so I don't know how much of an inpact that buffer will have further down the chain. The Klon the perfect tool to just get that little bit extra from my humbucker equiped guitars.
The single coiled ones still need a bit more extra and that's where I'm hoping the FatPants will work its magic.

What would be a good place to implement a buffer switch, a DPDT on-off toggle that switches the signal between R1 and R6 ? (in and buff in the schematic)

[madbean]

I would stick with the Klon buffer. There's nothing wrong with the FatPants one, but you already have one with the Klon so it is not needed.

You probably want to put your fuzz pedal first in you pedal chain.

[Cub]

Hey Brian, thanks for chiming in.

I agree that one buffer in front of the FatPants should be enough. But between the Klon's buffer and where the FatPants might go, there's the Klon itself as well. It's always on to subtly and cleanly enhance the tone and give it a bit more volume. I didn't put a relay in there or even a little toggle to ever turn it off.
Does this change the situation ?

When I build the silicon Bender, I'll be sure to listen to it in front of the Klon first. My green Sovket Muff clone doesn't sound that nice in front of the Klon.

[micromegas]

I think there's no problem. When the Klon is on, the output impedance is still low enough.
Buffers are often needed when you have long runs of cable, many true bypass pedals bypassed or a pedal that is causing impedance issues (like some volume pedals) causing a deterioration in the frecuency response of your chain (therefore the lost of "high" frecuencies).

If you have the Klon always on you shouldn't need a buffer for the FatPants. The buffer comes to play when you turn the klon off to keep  the output impedance low. There could be some issues when you turn it off with the sound you get from your fuzzes, so I second Madbean's advice: try the fuzz before the buffer first.

Remember, many buffered pedals in chain was the reason people started to use true bypass!! Is good to have a combination of buffered/tb pedals in your chain to keep the signal strong.

I use to work with antennas and RF at university A LOT, where impedance mismatch is always a problem and you have to find ways to addapt ins and outs and still it's been quite hard to me to understand how buffers, bypass and adaptation work in an audio chains because there's too much hype and different (some of them wrong) ideas out there.

Here you got and explanation by Pete Cornish: http://www.petecornish.co.uk/case_against_true_bypass.html

And another extensive explanation here: https://www.thegigrig.com/acatalog/TheGigRig_what_is_a_buffer.pdf

[midwayfair]

The klone buffer's output impedance is about the same as that of the Fatpants (figuring in FET oputput impedances compared with the 560R resistor in the klone). There might be a slight difference in the total bandwidth of the two buffers (I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the klone's has less bandwidth, but you can plug things into a calculator if you want to see which is best). Stacking them probably won't hurt; but it also won't do anything special. This is regardless of whether you have the klone or or off. When it's on, its output impedance is still below 10K. That's tiny. It's good enough to plug into a PA. :/

The second you have active circuitry between your guitar and another device (pedal, amp, etc.), it's decoupled -- the reason we use buffers is to avoid loading the guitar pickups with something else in the chain.

I'm gong to differ from everyone here and say that I think you should put your fuzz where it sounds best to you and works best with your set up. I prefer even Fuzz Faces after a buffered signal, even though some people think that's wrong. My guitar doesn't disappear from the mix when I step on my fuzz pedal, but maybe some people like that sort of thing ...

[micromegas]

I'm gong to differ from everyone here and say that I think you should put your fuzz where it sounds best to you and works best with your set up.

That's something I forgot to say.

The idea of using the buffer after the fuzzes  is a recommendation based on what many people reported, but there's no setup like other and, though stacking it before will probably change you sound, it doesn't mean it has to be a bad thing.

We are here to experiment anyway, aren't we?

[alanp]

WRT the buffer/fuzz thing -- remember that whatever's first in the chain, it's getting plugged into his wireless receiver, NOT the pickups themselves.

[Cub]

Wow, thank you gentlemen very much for all your very helpful and detailed posts ! Those are some very interesting articles. I read the Cornish completely and will take the time to read the Gig Rig PDF on Sunday

I'll build it without the buffer then and if it turns out to be not the pedal I need for my rack, I'll add the buffer and stick it in an enclosure for use on the floor with my regular amp. It never hurts to keep a boost around.
By that time, the boards for version 2 of the Bacon Bits are probably ready to ship and that might be just what the doctor ordered.

thanks again and goodnight from here,

Cub

[Cub]

Purists might say my tone is doomed from the start because of my wireless. Oh well, let them enjoy their pure tone while I enjoy the freedom on stage and the safe felling of having one cable less laying about for the drummer to trip over.

I finally had the time to read the GigRig article and boy, that really eplains everything. A very interesting read.

[micromegas]

I think is not a question of purism in this case.
I've never go wireless, but I've heard that what you lose is the reaction between the fuzz and the volume of your guitar (the "cleanup") and that's because the wireless system has to re-amp or buffer your guitar signal again. Is a similar discussion to buffer after/before fuzzes.

Glad you enjoyed the GigRig article it seemed pretty clear to me