Sound on sound pedal?

[AntKnee]

I am a beginner and have no idea what it would take, technically, to make this possible, but is it possible to build a volume-delay combination pedal that can emulate David Gilmour's sound on sound technique without splitting the signal to two line outs? The volume (or expression pedal) would control the effect level of the delay, and the delay would ring on when the volume is down (off), which will also bypass the effect, allowing you to play uneffected over your ringing delay. I have seen this possible on the Boss GT-100, but not any other way besides splitting the signal to two seperate paths. Maybe some combination of existing pedals would work?

[jkokura]

I think you have your answer right in your post.

Split your signal into two paths.

Jacob

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Funny that you ask this....

I just watched a very in-depth documentary on Floyd and it included how Gilmour recorded most of his guitar work.

Apparently, he often sat separately in a very large hall with a small-ish amp and placed the recording equipment on the far side of the room to get a natural delay and reverb sound for his tracks.

Hope this helps!

[AntKnee]

I think you have your answer right in your post.

Split your signal into two paths.

Jacob

This is what I don't want to do. I want to play through one amp. If I split it, how can I unit it again to plug into the amp? I'm sure you could split it, run it through a volume and a delay, but then you would need to send the delayed signal to another amp.

I want this effect: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKWtDf3MX9c
(Skip to about 0:53 in the video.) But without splitting the signal. It seems like it would be sort of like the "hold" function on the boss digital delays, but with a volume control for the effect level.

[jkokura]

I don't understand how you could do what you want to do without splitting your signal. You can mix it back together again to go to one amp, but you still need to split your signal.

Here's how I would do it:

Guitar signal > Splitter>
Out A > volume pedal > Mixer Input A
Out B > Effect pedals on full wet (no dry signal) > Mixer Input B
Mixer > Amp

Put a couple delays, a chorus, and a reverb or two in that Parallel path, then you'll be able to do what you're wanting to do.

You can get this all in a volume pedal enclosure from Ernie Ball I think. If you want to build it yourself, you'll want the splitter/mixer (coming soon) and need a volume pedal for at least one of the signal paths.

Jacob

[El_Chupanibre]

ROG has a very easy splitter/blend you can use

http://www.runoffgroove.com/splitter-blend.html

[AntKnee]

Ok, then. Thats what I'm talking about. I'm not against splitting the signal, but I would want to bring it back together again before continuing the pedal chain. To clarify, I just don't want to split to two amps. If there was a pedal, perhaps the ernie ball enclosure like you said, that contained the splitter, delay, chorus/phase and mixer and had one input and one output, thats what I'm asking for.

[jkokura]

Well, the Ernie Ball device I'm talking about is actually a volume/pan pedal. That's actually very similar to what David is doing in the video you linked to. I think he's using a Boss product, but it's essentially the same thing.

The Ernie Ball device simply pans your signal between two signal paths. So, it splits, then you can use the volume pedal to 'choose' the blend between the two outputs. Use one of these if you want a foot control over the pan. You'd still need a mixer afterwards though, but that's a simple DIY circuit.

http://www.ernieball.com/products/pedals/2037/500k-stereo-volumepan-pedal

If there was a pedal, perhaps the ernie ball enclosure like you said, that contained the splitter, delay, chorus/phase and mixer and had one input and one output, thats what I'm asking for.

There's no device I know of like that. You'll not find one. David's isn't like that either. He has all his stuff custom built for him, and that's a very, very expensive rig he runs.

Jacob

[AntKnee]

Yeah, David has his stuff built by Pete Cornish, I think. A big name building for another big name. His volume pedal is modified to automatically switch channels when he moves it, sending the chord to his effected channel, then when he lowers the volume pedal, it switches back to his bypass. He does not combine the channels back together, though, he sends them to seperate rigs. He has tried several ways of getting his effect, but I was wondering if it were possible to get it all into one enclosure. Sounds possible, not easy, but possible.

[AntKnee]

Just read up on that volume/pan pedal...
So you could use it in pan mode, using the pedal to switch from output A and B:

guitar>volume/pan

Channel A output>effect>mixer>out put to amp
Channel B output>mixer>output to amp

Then channel A would be the delayed/chorus ringing on and channel B would be the dry signal. I assume the pan pedal would swell the volume as you pan between channels. Seems like it would have the same effect that David's rig has, essentially.

[jkokura]

Precisely.

Essentially, the Panner works just like any panner would, including the DIY options like from ROG and JMK PCBs - splits the mono input signal, and allows you to direct a % of the input signal to two separate outputs (i.e %25 of signal A and %75 of signal B).

A Mixer works in the opposite form, taking two or more mono signals and then 'mixing' them back to a single mono output. In some cases, you get a % of a pair of signals (i.e %75 of signal A and %25 of signal B), but in other cases gives you independent volume control over each incoming signal (i.e. %100 Signal A, %80 signal B, $50 signal C, etc.). Some people call the first example, with one knob, a Blender, whereas the second type is much more typically called a Mixer.

Jacob

[AntKnee]

I'm familiar with mixers, have a few myself.
But for this application, seems like it would be simplest to just have a box with two inputs and two outputs and a pot in between each input/output. Is that all there is to it? Is that too passive, or would it require a boost in there as well?

[AllenM]

Hmmm... wonder if this would work

JMK Paralyzer (future product from JMK) or the JMK Panner  **Second loop on Paralyzer would be waisted in this concept**
JMK Modular Delay w/ Taptation, Mini Taptation or Modular Taptation **or any delay of your choosing**
Volume Pot
WAH Chasis

Input signal goes into the Paralyzer - send one goes into a volume pot controlled by the WAH treddle - volume output feeds Modular Delay - delay feeds return one - send two is hardwired to return two - Mixed output signal comes from Paralyzer.

When the pedal is engaged and the volume in toe position it would send a signal to the delay - when the pedal is in the heel position the delay would continue to play tails - the Blend on the Paralyzer would allow a mix between delay and dry - WAH footswitch would be bypass of the PAralyzer.

Actually sounds like a cool project... will put this on my to do list!

AllenM

**made some corrections / additions as needed**

[AntKnee]

Alright!!!! We got some wheels turnin now!

[AntKnee]

Any way you rig it, it will require a delay with a loooong decay length and tails. Not sure what would be best for that. I'm not sure you want a long delay time, i.e. hundreds of miliseconds, but a long hold time.