Tayda Electronics clone PCBs

[atreidesheir]

Is OSHPark offering copies of user's layouts like this?

[rullywowr]

Yes, OSH park has a "share" ability where a user can allow his project to be ordered by anyone. They do not give store credits however for sharing.

[electrosonic]

I can see that the sellers here offer customer support - people are helped to troubleshoot non-working builds. Should be interesting when someone asks for help to troubleshoot a tayda build.

Andrew.

[apollo]

I don't see a problem with this at all.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Looks like Tayda is not trying to mix words....

"Box of Rock" and "Ruby Amp" PCBs 

Wouldn't the use of these "names" constitute an issue?

[flanagan0718]

OK I guess I'll weigh in now. I both agree and disagree with the whole Tayda making boards thing.
   We all should have seen this coming. I say "we" lightly because I've only been building for about a year and modding for 2. Tayda knows that most of their clients are pedal builders and about a month or two ago (maybe longer) they started asking for people to submit projects they use the parts on. I personally didn't submit anything because I didn't want them to take my design. Plus I work a lot with vero/strip board and didn't think they wanted that.  Also they are in the market to make money. They don't care what product they put as long as it sells (take a look at their ceramic capacitors for example). That's why most of the components they sell are of the fecal persuasion. The boards are probably going to fall into the crap category as well. The one up that we have on them (not including quality) is the community aspect. I've said it before but I don't know how many times I have turned to this forum, specifically, for tech help. If there is ever an issue whit a MB build or any other pedal related thing there are 30 or 40 people that know the answer and are always willing to help. They will be far from that kind of support. for example: I got an order from them over the weekend and there were 4 small issues with it, I have yet to hear back from them. I could post a tech question on this forum and have 10 answers and things to try in 20 min. So, Them making boards has no affect on me because i personally wouldn't order one from them. I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.

[culturejam]

Ho boy! 

It is not illegal (in the US, Canada, and most "western" countries) to sell clone circuit boards or kits of currently produced products (assuming there is no patent). If that were the case, BYOC and GGG would have been sued into oblivion years ago. Ibanez, EHX, ProCo, and Boss all have the cash and experience to break out the lawsuit hammer at will. And yet they don't, even though said clone kits use the original trademarked name and company identifiers.

And that's because it is not illegal. Whether it's a giant company like Roland or a tiny non-profit collective like runoffgroove, saying "please don't clone this" has no legal standing whatsoever. Even with a sticker on the back begging you not to, there is no legal recourse. 





Further, explaining what the clone circuit actually is helps to lessen any chance of confusion to a potential customer. By stating something is a clone of some other thing, you are clearly demonstrating that it is not the original (but merely a copy). Same thing as drug-store brand ibuprofen says "Compare to Motrin" on the label.

Where people run into trouble is when they try to sell you, for example, a pedal and they claim it is a Lovepedal brand product, when in fact it was made in a factory in China by Thanks,Ken! Industries and it just looks like an original. That's called counterfeiting, and it is fraud to the consumer and trademark infringement (as well as other damages) with regards to the original producer.

If selling clone boards for money is bad, I hate to think what that makes me. I've sold a couple thousand clone circuit boards, almost all for a profit.

[chromesphere]

Good explanation Culturejam.  I started a thread a few weeks ago asking something along the lines of, as far as making clone pcbs goes, whats acceptable and whats not?  Most people said as long as you modify the circuit its all fine.  Personally I don't think that even matters.  Its a free for all.  People are cloning whatever they like.  This isnt Microsoft piracy.  Its a schematic...

Theres one thing about these new Tayda kits that has gotten my back up though...well those last 2 sentences that Flanagan ended with said it all:

I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.

[culturejam]

This isnt Microsoft piracy.  Its a schematic...

One thing I've tried, and failed, to get across to people over the last few years is this:

Each analog* pedal that ships out to customers includes a perfect and easily readable diagram of the underlying circuit. It's impossible, in fact, to send the pedal without sending a plainly laid out schematic in the form of the PCB and components. Navigating the process in reverse in no less ethical than doing it from schematic drawing > finished pedal. At least not to me.

You don't want people cloning your pedal? Don't sell it to anybody or otherwise distribute it. Keep it to yourself.

You don't want people using your schematic drawing? Don't post it on the internet. Keep it to yourself. If you post it, people will use it.

Seems simple.


* I say analog here as a qualifier because digital stuff is still largely outside the realm of casual reverse engineers.

Theres one thing about these new Tayda kits that has gotten my back up though...well those last 2 sentences that Flanagan ended with said it all:

I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.

So what?  You don't need to drink the Koolaid to serve it out to others.  They stock more and more pedal parts because we keep asking them to, not because it gives them warm and fuzzy feelings. That's a bad reason to start a business. You should be in business to make money.

[Govmnt_Lacky]

My focus was more on the names.

Box of Rock especially. Wouldn't that tend to mislead someone to think it is potentially a Zvex product?

[chromesphere]

This isnt Microsoft piracy.  Its a schematic...

One thing I've tried, and failed, to get across to people over the last few years is this:

Each analog* pedal that ships out to customers includes a perfect and easily readable diagram of the underlying circuit. It's impossible, in fact, to send the pedal without sending a plainly laid out schematic in the form of the PCB and components. Navigating the process in reverse in no less ethical than doing it from schematic drawing > finished pedal. At least not to me.

You don't want people cloning your pedal? Don't sell it to anybody or otherwise distribute it. Keep it to yourself.

You don't want people using your schematic drawing? Don't post it on the internet. Keep it to yourself. If you post it, people will use it.

Seems simple.


* I say analog here as a qualifier because digital stuff is still largely outside the realm of casual reverse engineers.

Theres one thing about these new Tayda kits that has gotten my back up though...well those last 2 sentences that Flanagan ended with said it all:

I can understand they want to make money but that's all they care about. They don't have a passion for it like us.

So what?  You don't need to drink the Koolaid to serve it out to others.  They stock more and more pedal parts because we keep asking them to, not because it gives them warm and fuzzy feelings. That's a bad reason to start a business. You should be in business to make money.

I personally think you should be in business for both reasons.  If your not, then its time to find a new job But anyway, this is slightly off topic.

[atreidesheir]

By using a company's names they are probably committing trademark infringement.  If they do not change the names of the pcb's, they definitely are inviting trouble.  They will be warned.  Hopefully they will change it.  Since Tayda now has some sort of distribution in the USA the warnings will have some teeth.  If they do change the names, there is not much to dislike, except the potential for troubleshooting problems and not knowing the provenance of the layout. 
It is nice to have some faith in the person responsible for it. 

[chromesphere]

It is nice to have some faith in the person responsible for it.

Which in this case is not actually tayda but DH Electronic acoustics (its written in the product description): http://dhelectroacoustics.com/

Id say there is no support, unless of course the guy in this picture can speak English? http://dhelectroacoustics.com/contact-us.html

[culturejam]

Regarding using names of existing products, it's not a problem to describe the clone product by comparing it to the original.

However, it might be a problem to have the trademarked name actually on the clone PCB silkscreen. That could indeed cause customer confusion. So yeah, that's not cool. But the rest of it is what you see in every other industry on the planet.

[Clayford]

Regarding using names of existing products, it's not a problem to describe the clone product by comparing it to the original.

However, it might be a problem to have the trademarked name actually on the clone PCB silkscreen. That could indeed cause customer confusion. So yeah, that's not cool. But the rest of it is what you see in every other industry on the planet.

Not to mention using Zach's copyrighted descriptions of the circuits....