Tayda Electronics clone PCBs

[selfdestroyer]

I know the SHO was brought up in another post but it now looks like they have added a few more to the list.

http://www.taydaelectronics.com/pcb/diy-guitar-effects.html

SUPER HARD ON DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
RUBY AMP DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
DISTORTION PLUS DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
ENGLISH MAN AND LES LIUS DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
ETERNITY DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
PLEXITONE DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
BOX OF ROCK DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT
GUITAR BOOST DIY PCB GUITAR EFFECT

If they are doing these in house it might be worth grabbing one and seeing the quality of their PCB manufacture service.

Documents are up also and they seem ok. They explain the basics pretty well.
http://www.taydakits.com/instructions/eternity

[wretched]

If you look at the PCB building page from tayda it has
"If you have an interesting project to share, check our Tayda Revenue Sharing with electronics kits designers."

I think we will start to see a lot more pop up.

But this is bad because I JUST put in my parts order at 4pm CST.

[gtr2]

Looks like the PCB's are from here...

http://dhelectroacoustics.com/index.html

I've personally stopped using Tayda all together about 6 months ago.  I just can't use their parts in any commercial building I do and I was only using the 3362 trimmers and 1590B enclosures anyways.

I wonder how long until they get contacted about copyright infringement.

The biggest issue I have is I'm worried about the implications it has for us.  They have already started selling PCB's of things that are exclusive to DIY projects like runoff grooves.com ruby amp.  They don't share schematics with us for any of the projects but it's clearly the same Ruby based on some of the odd values in the BOM.

I will no longer support Tayda in any way or through any links or parts recommendations.  It's a sad day for DIY IMO.

Josh

[selfdestroyer]

Looks like the PCB's are from here...

http://dhelectroacoustics.com/index.html

I've personally stopped using Tayda all together about 6 months ago.  I just can't use their parts in any commercial building I do and I was only using the 3362 trimmers and 1590B enclosures anyways.

I wonder how long until they get contacted about copyright infringement.

The biggest issue I have is I'm worried about the implications it has for us.  They have already started selling PCB's of things that are exclusive to DIY projects like runoff grooves.com ruby amp.  They don't share schematics with us for any of the projects but it's clearly the same Ruby based on some of the odd values in the BOM.

I will no longer support Tayda in any way or through any links or parts recommendations.  It's a sad day for DIY IMO.

Josh

Josh, I totally understand where you are coming from and I think they should have went the Mammoth Electronics way and just offered kits from DIY companies with their consent. The fact that they are using the names of the retail projects is shotty at best. It reminds me of http://www.3pdt.com/ and how they have some blaint knockoffs of Brian's layouts.

You actually brought up points that I really didn't think about when I posted the initial post. I was more interested in seeing the quality of their PCB fabrication. I really have no need to buy PCBs from someone like them since their are so many etchable layouts and schematics available for all their presented PCBs. We will have to see what direction they take and if any retail manufactures go after them for name infringement.

Cody

[jimilee]

I'm gonna play devil's advocate here, and I don't have a dog in this hunt but did you guys contact runoffgroove or tayda to see if they are legit? It does mention sharing projects

If you look at the PCB building page from tayda it has
"If you have an interesting project to share, check our Tayda Revenue Sharing with electronics kits designers."

I think we will start to see a lot more pop up.

But this is bad because I JUST put in my parts order at 4pm CST.

I'm not flaming or otherwise have malice intent, like I said, I'm just playing deil's advocate.

[atreidesheir]

well.  The prices are not knocking my socks off.  There is the practical side of this.

[electrosonic]

I am missing something here, so excuse my ignorance.

There are many sellers of PCBs on the web who have taken schematics found online - Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Big Muffs, Tube Screamers etc and created their own layouts and had PCBs manufactured to sell.  So what exactly is Tayda doing differently then everyone else?

I feel like I am stepping on a hornet's nest here, so please don't eviscerate me.

Andrew

[chromesphere]

This is the sort of thing you can expect from Tayda.  They know that a lot of their customers are pedal builders and theirs a market for it.  99% of their parts are rubbish quality, id rather source my own.  I have ethical issues with how they run their business.  Like GTR2 said, the designer of the PCB is blatantly using the effects name. Tayda aren't patrolling the kits. As long as their making $ off them, they don't care. This isn't DIY guitar pedals, build something and learn.  This is "get effects cheap".  Inline with the rest of Tayda's business model.  I've had it with them, my business is slowly moving to others.

[Thomas_H]

I am missing something here, so excuse my ignorance.

There are many sellers of PCBs on the web who have taken schematics found online - Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Big Muffs, Tube Screamers etc and created their own layouts and had PCBs manufactured to sell.  So what exactly is Tayda doing differently then everyone else?

Andrew

There is a moral and a legal aspact to this. Runoffgroove circuits for example reqire a reference to the orginal circuit in the build instructions and the original name of the circuit. As I started to make PCBs for their circuits I got in contact with them and they told me the requirements for making and selling those PCBs. There are further things needed to actually sell a commercial product that contains their circuit.

Tayda neither mentiones runoffgroove in any way, nor do they use any reference on their PCBs to the origination.
I am pretty sure that a kit also qualifies as a commercial product.

[gtr2]

I am missing something here, so excuse my ignorance.

There are many sellers of PCBs on the web who have taken schematics found online - Tonebenders, Fuzz Faces, Big Muffs, Tube Screamers etc and created their own layouts and had PCBs manufactured to sell.  So what exactly is Tayda doing differently then everyone else?

I feel like I am stepping on a hornet's nest here, so please don't eviscerate me.

Andrew

It's ok.  It's a valid question.

The DIY effects world is a bit of a self regulating entity.  We police ourselves in some fashion.  Tayda has clearly already used a DIY project and created a PCB for it.  As far as I can tell they don't have permission to use it.  What's stopping them from taking other DIY market projects from us?

The question would be.  If you created a fun, somewhat original sounding circuit that you released to the DIY market.  How would you feel if someone started selling PCB's of your project without your permission?  They have no ethics or moral standards that we can keep them accountable for.

I've also spent countless hours helping others with tech help for my projects via email and forums.  Is Tayda going to offer any technical help?  Heck, they don't even have schematics for the projects.  That will be fun to troubleshoot.

Just some things to digest

Josh

[gordo]

It's a good day when you can use "eviscerate" in a sentence and sound cool.  I agree with all the above, but I think it gets a little squirrely when a fairly high profile market source just tosses this kind of thing out there...lawsuits and legalities be damned...  They seem to be taking the approach that it's "easier to ask for forgiveness than it is for permission".

Sounds a little two faced on my part because we constantly toe the line with what we do, but I'd like to think we're a small group of hobbyists that are more concerned with how to tweak stuff to our liking, and learn from it, rather than blatantly copy other's work.

Once money enters the equation it gets a little sideways but I don't see Bean or Barry or JD getting rich anytime soon doing this.  What they offer is a place for all of us to pitch in with ideas, support, and knowledge.  Tayda does none of that, they just move product.  Nothing wrong with that, but it misses the point.

[spaceboss]

Maybe I'm alone, but I'm not that worked up about it.

It seems that most of the complaints involve things that at worst relate to a cultural difference with the way intellectual property is regarded. The faux paux of calling things by their actual names, has more to do with our copyright law than morality. What's the moral difference between calling something a 'fuzz factory' and a 'lint fabrication establishment'?

It's nice to give diy designers credit, and is certainly something we should all do--but we have a very nuanced understanding of our own hobby. In their view, credit might exist through using the real name. I could see someone in a very hard-scrabble dog eat dog business environment, scratching their head at why it is ok to use a ocd board without licensing, etc, but it's not for a Ruby amp, to attribute Run off groove, but not Mike Fuller, etc.

To be frank, the Asian understanding of intellectual property (minus the lack of attribution), is closer to the DIY ethos than is often acknowledged.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/Themes/darkmodern202/images/bbc/bold.gif
As for Tayda part quality--in my experience; hit or miss. At the same time the low cost has allowed me to complete a few circuits, I wouldn't have otherwise done. Shipping has been fair, the orders fulfilled as or more accurately than other joints.

Just my opinion.

[jkokura]

I'll add too that along with the DIY community sort of 'policing' itself, we also tend to be able to call back into line members who are stepping on other peoples toes. For example, if I started cloning Dirtbag PCBs from Brian, there'd be a sure and swift reaction from the community, and I'd either have to pull them or some such. There is none of that DIY community power over Tayda because they're based in Asia, likely don't speak english well, and they're a company not an individual. They don't participate in the DIY community.

In the same way, most PCB makers I know of try hard not to step too much on each others toes. Yes, we make cross layouts sometimes, but they're usually of very common effects, like an Op Amp Muff or Fuzz Face. However, when you start taking someone's bread and butter product (Josh's Multiplex for example) and start to sell workalikes or even clones...

That's why people don't like where this is going with Tayda. There's no influence from us as a community. They've already proven themselves to be an 'undercutting clone' business based on their current model, and I suspect that's what's going to arise here. They're going to clone the DIY community's work, and then undercut us.

Jacob

[atreidesheir]

There are some good insights here.  I think this is probably not going to be a big money maker for tayda.  It may not quite take off and blossom for them.  None of our community entrepreneurs are raking it in.  One of their big motivations is self-fulfillment and helping others in the diy community.  Those are not good business model for a profit margin.  And the prices are not really better than our trusted and established small businessmen.  So I see no real reason to buy tayda's pcb product.

If they did mic preamps or recording eq pcb's, that might be something I am interested in.  I already have good sources for guitar projects.

[rullywowr]

I agree with many of the sentiments mentioned.  I don't have a dog in this fight but if we look at this objectively, we can see that Tayda is mainly playing a "host" to the intellectual property.  I imagine that someone at Tayda is not scouring the diy forums for circuits to clone and sell, but rather other end users in the DIY community ARE.  These same end users are uploading direct copies of circuits from ROG and others, with the notion of getting some Tayda store credits when each PCB sells due to the business model Tayda offers them.  This is not unlike a filesharing site (with upload/download credits) or the whole Napster music debacle years ago.

I'm not insisting this is right and just, I am just stating that Tayda is functioning in this capacity as a "host" for this activity...and of course making money in the process.  To put it in perspective, one could say the same thing about OSH Park.  If someone uploads a direct clone of a Ruby Amp (or whatever) and shares it etc...OSH Park is then facilitating the intellectual property violation and making money in the process just like Tayda.  Should we boycott OSH Park because there are clones of circuits on there for sale?  Probably not.  Can Tayda/OSH Park be held liable?...it depends if the circuit itself is copyrighted, and if the owner has enough time/funds/legal counsel to press the issue.  The majority of commercial pedal circuits are not copyrighted themselves, but the layouts may be.

The ethics of cloning circuits is a unique and dynamic thing as most would not think twice about seeing a Tubescreamer clone, or a Univibe clone, or a BMP clone... but if it is a ROG clone (or insert name of treasured circuit here) everybody is suddenly up in arms about it.  It is explicitly stated in ROG's docs and site that any PCBs for sale using their IP must be cleared from them, so yes...ripping off them is douchebag thing to do.  But hardly no one feels bad about cloning an 808 or a BMP.

So who is to blame?  The user who uploaded the file?  Tayda?  Perhaps both?  I don't think it is possible for Tayda or OSH Park (or Seeed...etc.) to verify every project uploaded and ensure it is not a direct rip off or try to investigate the origins of the circuit.  They may be completely oblivious to this, or not, or maybe just don't care.  The culture of sharing IP in Asia is much different than the rest of the world as previously mentioned.  I have a feeling that they aren't trying to make a killing on this, but rather trying to jump on the "open source" bandwagon to attract new customers.  We can see many other companies doing this (Itead, OSHpark, so on) and it is becoming a popular thing to do.

It's not in good taste for sure, but it brings up the age old dilemma of ethics of cloning circuits, what part of a circuit is copyrighted, and not being a total douchebag.     I think we must look at the entire picture rather than just saying "F*&k Tayda."  Maybe it should be  "F*&k the d-bag who uploaded the file."  Just my 2c.