Cloning for Profit - A Touchy Subject

[chromesphere]

Oh boy...here we go!

A recent topic brought this question to mind and I would like to see what you guys think...why do I keep raising touchy subjects...anyway here goes.

It seems to be general consensus amongst the diy community, if you build pedals for yourself, that's ok.  If you clone pedals to sell, that's a grey area (dependant on factors: quantity, mods, the circuit being cloned, personality of the builder, number of eyelashes of the builder, etc).  What I don't understand is, if its generally viewed as unethical to clone pedals for sale, why is it ok to make a diy project / pcb on an existing circuit?  There is profit in that too, and it is someone else's design.  Let me just state here nice and clearly.  This is coming from someone that sells (although basic / beginner) kits / pcbs of existing pedals and circuits. 

I find it hard to discern the difference...is it more about merit?  Profit from Learning as opposed to profit from cheap knock offs?
Your opinion welcome,
Cheers
Paul

[juansolo]

There's a sticky at the top of this forum (the ethics one) that covers just this in a very sensible and reasoned manner I think. To the point that unlike other forums, we pretty much had it over and done with in a few pages

[Rockhorst]

In principal, circuits themselves are not protected, and judging by the huge amount of TS pedals it is really a grey area and up to everyone's own personal judgement. I have no problem with selling something that I've put time in and tweaked to my or a customer's taste. I'm basically sustaining my hobby.

Selling pcb's is a service and totally legit as long as it's an original PCB design. I think it'a also a different (part of the) market. I've built pedals for guys that spend their free time with a soldering iron in their Les Paul, trying every cap they can find, but can't be bothered to build a pedal.

Personally, I like taking existing designs and adjusting them to taste. If someone asks me to buld THAT pedal, I tell them to go buy that (I live almostnext to a guitarstore), the fun starts when they say they want Something CLOSE to thatpedal, which I think is fair game.

[chromesphere]

I have read the sticky juansolo a while ago, it was very interesting.

Selling pcb's is a service and totally legit as long as it's an original PCB design.

That's what I mean.  There are loads of diy PCB's out there that are based directly on existing pedals.  infact I would go as far as saying, 90% are based directly on an existing schematic.  Some have some mods.  Does that make all of these pcb's sellers actions unacceptable?

I personally think everyone draws a line somewhere as to what's acceptable and what's not, I'm interested to hear where other people draw THEIR line.  My line is very faint.  I don't really care as to what anyone else does, bar a few scenarios I would say are just totally uncool.  Like someone ripping off a madbean design exactly and selling it on his forum.  That's pretty low.  Apart from things like this that are just totally wrong, I honestly don't care for 'who is allowed to do what'.

Edit: I dare say this opinion on the subject would definitely put me in the minority amongst builders.

Paul

[ncdb07]

I wrestle with this subject a lot. I think what drives this hobby or passion is the fact that manufacturers are charging prices that people can't afford or are unwilling to pay for a circuit that costs a couple bucks to make. Look at Madbean's Egghead circuit the whole thing can be built for $25 bucks but the manufacturer is charging $500. Good money if you can get it I guess.

It is very similar to what happened to the recording industry. The record companies got greedy. People got tired of paying $20 for a CD with 2 good songs on it. It only had 2 good songs on it because the record companies were rushing the artists. So out of desperation someone invented downloading music to only get what they wanted. Are people stealing, maybe, but then again how much was stolen from them in the first place.

I just watched Blockbuster go out of business. Same thing. And good riddance. I effing hated Blockbuster.

I am currently waiting for the Time Warner Cable backlash. My city (Greensboro, N.C.) long ago signed a contract with what was then Cablevision (now TWC) to never have another cable company in this area that would cause bidding wars for their service. So the choices are TWC or a satellite tv company. People are being robbed astronomical amounts of money by these clowns and I can't wait to see them fall.

Back to the pedal industry, Mesa Boogie just released a range of pedals. One or them is a Tube Screamer. I think it goes for $179. I would venture to say that all of their pedals are based on something else currently existing with minor changes.

Very few manufacturers are doing anything new. The Bogner stuff is cool. But basically people are rehashing old designs and charging big money.

I can't wait to see what Madbean's new company will do. I believe they are looking to create something that is their own, different and exciting.

ncdb07
Daniel

[LaceSensor]

I haven't got a problem with it at all. As long as the pcb is unique then go for it.
Pretty much everyone offers big muffs and tubescreams in various guises, so anything else is just an extension of that.

I offer clones of Lovetones because they aren't made anymore, and it enthuse about the sounds they make, as a way of funding my hobby. Everyone's a winner in my mind.

[stevie1556]

My way of seeing it, as long as the PCB is unique, and it's not being passed off as a genuine pedal when it's not, then it's fine.

Just look at Big Muffs on eBay, there is normally more clones then there are real ones!

Sent from my thumbs using Tapatalk!

[croquet hoop]

Look at Madbean's Egghead circuit the whole thing can be built for $25 bucks but the manufacturer is charging $500.

$500 for a pedal is slightly steep, but the fact that you can get the materials for $25 does not means the DIY variant is worth $25, if you build to sell, unless you consider your building skills and time are not worth a dime (but if you build for yourself, as a hobby, then it does not matter).

[davent]

Back to the pedal industry, Mesa Boogie just released a range of pedals. One or them is a Tube Screamer. I think it goes for $179. I would venture to say that all of their pedals are based on something else currently existing with minor changes.


Daniel

And from what of read of Randall Smith he will have found a way to wrangle a patent on it.

[ncdb07]

And from what of read of Randall Smith he will have found a way to wrangle a patent on it.
[/quote]

This is probably true! Made me laugh! I am a fan of Mesa Boogie. I love their amps, but they will patent anything.

ncdb07
Daniel

[Govmnt_Lacky]

...unless you consider your building skills and time are not worth a dime (but if you build for yourself, as a hobby, then it does not matter).

Yeah!!! Dont sell yourself short.

Let all the people who want to purchase your pedals do that for you! 

[pickdropper]

And just because it can be built for $25 using Tayda parts does not mean that is what the manufacturing cost is.

Often (but not always), the higher quality parts add cost (especially mechanical parts).  That can be offset by purchasing in bulk, but that depends on many factors.

There are also other costs beyond that of simply parts.  There is the cost of manufacturing (building and testing), packaging, marketing and then the markups for dealers (and often distributors).  There is also an assumption that there will be enough extra to pay for development costs and leave some profit.

I am not saying the economics make sense for a $500 dirt pedal, but all of the above costs certainly are involved in Mesa's pricing.  Could they sell it for less?  Maybe.  Could they sell it for $50, I doubt it.

[Rockhorst]

Back to the pedal industry, Mesa Boogie just released a range of pedals. One or them is a Tube Screamer. I think it goes for $179.

I just checked this out: great $ale$ pitch, it just shows you can sell anything if you throw in enough mumbojumbo.

[chromesphere]

If I was going to make up a pedal forum book 'Best Posts of all Time' Pickdropper, your last comment would be in it.  Agree with that 100%, and as far as im concerned, bang on the money.  Manufacturing and DIY are two totally different beasts.  I'm not justifying a $500 pedal. without looking deeper into it, that just sounds like profiteering.  But the 2 approaches are very different.  Not to mention, the pedal company / manufacturer has to pay taxes, possible wages, warehouse rent, list goes on and on.  I'm usually the first person to get stuck into pedal companies for over pricing their goods, but when you stop and think about it, they have to charge more then us, they have more expenses!  Unless they go down the cheap Chinese toy pedal path, but who wants one of those...junk...

So it would appear to be a common theme with some responses so far in this thread that as long as you put your own spin on things (pcb fabbing OR cloning) no one seems to mind even if it is based on an existing circuit.  This was more along the lines of what I thought majority of pedal builders would consider fair. My opinion is somewhat anti-establishmentarian, but my sensible side knows there's plenty of room for people to act irresponsibly with my approach. 

All said and done, personally the real satisfaction of pedal building comes from when I create something that is my own.  Where you draw the line as to what is your own is up to you to decide.

[jubal81]

If someone goes to the trouble to create a layout and test it and is willing to put it in the mail, I don't have any problem paying them for it. Really, you're working very cheap and it's a service to the community and gets more boards available.

Totally different ballgame from a pedal company, which is not really about circuits, but marketing and 'brand.'

What we commonly call 'clones' are really workalikes. Even with the same circuit, it's different parts, layout and packaging.