Just Saying -- the soapbox thread

[Muadzin]

Oh I know, I can't believe how much they lifted. If my calculations are right, there are only approximately 12 original blues songs and every one covered them. I've been listening to bluesville on XM radio. They play early early recorded stuff, and even those guys were ripping each other off.

Covering famous blues songs and giving it your own spin seems to be standard in blues, to the point that sometimes most of a CD or even artist's output consists of covers. Whereas in rock this ceased to be cool, causing them to learn how to write their own material. Or be 'inspired', as Led Zeppelin often was. And woo to the rock band whose most famous hit was a cover, for they would forever be doomed to play that cover till their breakup days.

[alanp]

Covers are still preferable to what goes on these days. One song that gets airtime... the group responsible basically pinched Led Zep's Kashmir, stripped out Robert Plant, and dubbed themselves going yakyakyak talktalktalk on top.

At least with covers, they still play their own instruments.

[Muadzin]

Speaking about playing your own instruments, Rick Beato had a very interesting discussion about that.

[yt]IO-2I8b3Ngo[/yt]

[matmosphere]

Speaking about playing your own instruments, Rick Beato had a very interesting discussion about that.

[yt]IO-2I8b3Ngo[/yt]

I can't help but have mixed feelings about that guy. He presents stuff like he is telling the gospel of rock music, but really he is just stating his opinions. He really only ever talks about a few dozen bands that he likes. Calling videos the "Greatest Guitar Intros Ever", instead of just saying "my favorite guitar intros" just rubs me the wrong way.

He is knowledgeable, and I do enjoy some of his explanations, but I don't seek him out unless he is talking about things I am already interested in.

[TFZ]

https://guitar.com/news/conspiracy-theory-covid-19-vaccine-boss-metal-zone/

[midwayfair]

At least with covers, they still play their own instruments.

Thriller uses a drum machine, and they had access to Porcaro.

I just noticed that Rod Stewart's Young Turks (1981!) used a drum machine.

Most of the 80s used synths for like ... any instrument that wasn't a guitar made to sound like a keyboard (chorus).

[rockola]

Thriller uses a drum machine, and they had access to Porcaro.

Let's hear it for Allan Holdsworth's great drummer pal, Mac Hine!

Sent from my Redmi Note 7 using Tapatalk

[matmosphere]

At least with covers, they still play their own instruments.

Thriller uses a drum machine, and they had access to Porcaro.

I just noticed that Rod Stewart's Young Turks (1981!) used a drum machine.

Most of the 80s used synths for like ... any instrument that wasn't a guitar made to sound like a keyboard (chorus).

Yeah, didn't Sting take it one step further and actually erase Stewart Copeland's drum tracks at one point and just replace them with a drum machine? Copeland is a hell of a drummer, so a drum machine just doesn't make sense.

The eighties were a strange time.

[midwayfair]

Copeland is a hell of a drummer, so a drum machine just doesn't make sense.

Because the point is that it's an artistic choice.

It's still an artistic choice if the producer decides that it's easier to get a particular dance groove they need for the purpose of the song by using a drum machine rather than a human.

Like a funky well-played groove gets people moving, but apparently so does asking your machine for literally just a kick and snare -- Blinding Lights was the biggest hit of the 2020, and while I know there's also a completely straight 8th note hi-hat in the chorus, I actually can barely hear it, so literally the entire song's drum part sounds like KSKS over and over again for the length of the song.

The reason statements like the one I replied to are frustrating to me is because they come across not only as profoundly ignorant of the songwriting process and artistic process of producing, but they ignore what actually sounds good to listeners and replaces it with some high-minded concept that there's a particular line that one must not cross before your song is declared as sucking out of hand. I mean, we're on a forum dedicated to essentially destroying the purity of the tone of an electric guitar, why's that okay? Hell, why use an electric instrument in the first place, shouldn't you stick with an acoustic? Maybe everyone should go back to gut frets, after all you're not a REAL musician unless you custom temper your instrument for each key! You've heard of listening with your eyes? This isn't even that, this is listening with your abstract principles.

[Aleph Null]

Thriller uses a drum machine, and they had access to Porcaro.

For me, it's always been the bass that drives Thriller. The push and pull of the baseline against the perfectly metrinomic drums creates the rhythmic tension. Parcaro would have made it groove for sure, but in a different way. At the risk of over thinking it, the drum machine is kind of like the zombie horde; inhuman and relentless.

[TheDude]

The reason statements like the one I replied to are frustrating to me is because they come across not only as profoundly ignorant of the songwriting process and artistic process of producing, but they ignore what actually sounds good to listeners and replaces it with some high-minded concept that there's a particular line that one must not cross before your song is declared as sucking out of hand. I mean, we're on a forum dedicated to essentially destroying the purity of the tone of an electric guitar, why's that okay? Hell, why use an electric instrument in the first place, shouldn't you stick with an acoustic? Maybe everyone should go back to gut frets, after all you're not a REAL musician unless you custom temper your instrument for each key! You've heard of listening with your eyes? This isn't even that, this is listening with your abstract principles.

You could also argue that his point was from another, more emotional bias that I think many of us tend to have as people who play instruments.

We could argue this point was not about the perceived quality of human created vs machine created music. As musicians ourselves (some of us farrr less skilled than others, myself included), many will often recognize and respect talent when we see it. And, for myself at least, it feels like there's talent being wasted when its replaced with machine made music. That doesn't invalidate the quality of the machine made music. But it does feel like his talent is being negated by that artistic choice, which reveals our bias as musicians ourselves, as by extension, it feels like like a negation of our own perceived talents.

Again, that's where our stance reveals it's bias. We also start to get into things at this point, like what is the personal & professional relationship between Sting and Copeland - if Sting didn't want to use Copeland's talents, why did he stick around and not take them elsewhere? That's for them to know, and only them.

People can boogie down to whatever they like. I think the hardest thing for anyone who loves human musicianship to see is a human to be replaced by a machine. Its like, if you want to use the machine, great. But couldn't you have just started with the machine and let the human use their talent somewhere that we'll get a chance to experience it rather than on the cutting room floor?

Just a thought.

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[midwayfair]

I think the hardest thing for anyone who loves human musicianship to see is a human to be replaced by a machine. Its like, if you want to use the machine, great. But couldn't you have just started with the machine and let the human use their talent somewhere that we'll get a chance to experience it rather than on the cutting room floor?

A human made the machine and another told it what to do.

People record musicians all the time and have other musicians come in and play parts instead. I've had my parts on other peoples' albums replaced and I've done the replacing. How is THAT any different? But most people would say that's perfectly reasonable. The songwriter wanted something else and decided that what they ended up using was better for their song. But the second the source of that sound is a particular piece of electronics it's bad (all this other artificial stuff is fine, though).

It's not like ALL of Copeland's parts were replaced by a machine, just like the Thriller album didn't use one beat source (human or machine) exclusively. This may be hard to accept but a studio musician is just a tool in the same way that a machine is.

EDIT: I should say, people can have whatever emotional reaction they want to art and that's fine. But I think people should reexamine their prejudices, because some of them are received criticism. I believe the dislike of drum machines and the dislike of any autotune whatsoever are mostly received criticisms and not honest assessments of the art.

[DLW]

Copeland is a hell of a drummer, so a drum machine just doesn't make sense.

Because the point is that it's an artistic choice.

It's still an artistic choice if the producer decides that it's easier to get a particular dance groove they need for the purpose of the song by using a drum machine rather than a human.

Like a funky well-played groove gets people moving, but apparently so does asking your machine for literally just a kick and snare -- Blinding Lights was the biggest hit of the 2020, and while I know there's also a completely straight 8th note hi-hat in the chorus, I actually can barely hear it, so literally the entire song's drum part sounds like KSKS over and over again for the length of the song.

The reason statements like the one I replied to are frustrating to me is because they come across not only as profoundly ignorant of the songwriting process and artistic process of producing, but they ignore what actually sounds good to listeners and replaces it with some high-minded concept that there's a particular line that one must not cross before your song is declared as sucking out of hand. I mean, we're on a forum dedicated to essentially destroying the purity of the tone of an electric guitar, why's that okay? Hell, why use an electric instrument in the first place, shouldn't you stick with an acoustic? Maybe everyone should go back to gut frets, after all you're not a REAL musician unless you custom temper your instrument for each key! You've heard of listening with your eyes? This isn't even that, this is listening with your abstract principles.

If OP had explicitly added "to me" at the end of "...doesn't make sense.", would that void your argument? A common problem that perplexes and frustrates me is how freely people assert their opinions as universal truth, regardless of how well informed or reasoned they might be (which I thought your opinion was). I mean, both of you can be correct.

Just saying.

[matmosphere]

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy some music with drum machines, and I can definitely appreciate many of the points you are making.

My point was more that the police were a band made up of individual artist. In the case I brought up Sting was just being a dick, it sounds like he did it not to improve the song but to piss off Copeland and break up the band. He basically took what another artist had made and erased while they were home sick.

There is a decent way to treat other people and other artist and that is not how to do it. If he wanted a drum machine then fine, either have a discussion, or start a solo project. Just don't do it to be an ass

And for the record I really like the Police, but I generally try to judge how people act and the art they create through a slightly different lens when I can.

[midwayfair]

I was talking about the statement about playing their own instruments that I originally replied to there.