Why is so incredibly hard to choose a looper?

[Cortexturizer]

Never did I struggle so much than finding a looper that I can use. Seems like the VOX VDL1 has all I need, but I don't see many people using it. There has to be a strong reason. I am aware of some of it's shortcomings, but some of them are not crucial because the way I use my setup.

I'll tell you what I need in a looper, what kind of music I play, and how I plan to use a looper, so I:

- play in an instrumental experimental rock band
- never owned a looper before
- hate not having options to manipulate loops live
- need a one shot mode in a looper, and ability to start over before loop end [retrigger?]
- play in stereo, and would use VDL1 on other amp exclusively, not with my "main sound" amp
(I should clarify - I use one amp and one board as my main sound, and then use another board consisting only of modulation effects going into another amp as my sound two that gets turned on only in choruses of songs, or specific parts where I need som drama and extra psychodelic soundscapes => here's where VDL1 would go, that I plan to take in and out with a volume pedal)
- need a reverse, double time, half-time, and loop fade out features
- don't need storing loops [if digitech or boss products had the retrigger feature though, then I could benefit from storing greatly]
- probably need to be able to record very very short loops, snippets of playing like a second or so long [I hear the VDL1's minimum time is 10s which is underwhelming but a method of cutting the loops via resampling was mentioned somewhere on the interwebz]
- I don't need any metronome syncing, and would hate if VOX's effects would be synced to the metronome [though because I would prepare the loop on that other amp I could tap the tempo while the song progresses so it's not a major concern]

What I really can't understand is why Boss or Digitech don't offer retrigger mode, or change loop in real time mode (?!?!) I mean having to wait untill the end of phrase is ludicrous!  
That's my main con with those units.
That and really heavy and hard footswitches that I don't get along with so well...seems to me that the ones on the VOX are a lot easier to stomp and to get your timing right.

It's very frustrating cause whatever looper I have considered I've decided it lacks an option or few that would be cruicial to my performance. It appears like VOX has it all, but no one seems to use it which concerns me to be honest. However, I tend to use pedals no one sees any value in, so I might be on a good track here after all.

I was also considering a M9 but it has limited loop manipulation options [would the use of expression pedal or MIDI increase their number?], and also, no one seems to want to get rid of theirs.

Don't tell me to get a Boomerang cause I can't get it in my country and it's way over my budget.
That being said, offers are welcomed via PM, so if you wanna get rid of your looper here's your chance. I could close my eye on some of the options that your looper might not have that I need.

There is an option to use Ableton Live and some MIDI controllers for maximum tweakage. But I don't get along with MIDI that well and I wouldn't rely on computers unless I absolutely had to!

So that's my struggle with loopers and looping, one can loose their mind over this...

[jkokura]

Have you looked into the Boomerang with Sidecar?

Jacob

[Cortexturizer]

Don't tell me to get a Boomerang cause I can't get it in my country and it's way over my budget.

))

I am currently torn between a used Boss RC20XL and a brand new VOX VDL1.

[kothoma]

I've tried several loopers and none worked for me.
And the Boss RC20XL was clicking and ticking incredibly. Completely useless.

For me hardware loopers are dead. Whenever I get time to build a midi controler for Ableton Live and get into Max I'll try this route. Possibly not in this life, though. But I think with Live there will always be sync to tempo. Live aside, it would not be too difficult to write your own software looper behaving exactly the way you want. There are even open source projects.

I'm not sure I understand all, but it seems like you're more interested in one-shot sampling than looping?
So you don't aim primarily at layering grooves or ambient textures going in a loop?
You don't need to store loops, so you're working with only one sample at a time?

If you could build your own looper, what footswitches would be there?

[gtr2]

I have a digitech jamman, a tc ditto, and boomerang 2.  I prefer the boomerang 2.  Id love the new one with a side car but I'm fine for now with what I've got.

[ThePastRecedes]

You said don't recommend the boomerang since its out of you're budget so probably this is too. I really want one but the price is way to expensive. Hopefully there will some cheaper ones on the used market in a few years. It seems to do everything you would ever want in a looper.

[raulduke]

The Roland sampler range (Eg. SP404) may be more what you are after.

Also, they are popular with live performers.

[GhostofJohnToad]

I'm hoping I can make something work with a Raspberry Pi running Sooper Looper headless.  http://essej.net/sooperlooper/

I have actually found my best looping workflow comes from using my MPC1000 with JJOS.  But this isn't the best alternative for live looping.

[kothoma]

I'm hoping I can make something work with a Raspberry Pi running Sooper Looper headless.  http://essej.net/sooperlooper/

Hey, keep us updated!

[pedalman]

have you looked into the Ditto ?
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/DittoLooper

[Cortexturizer]

I love you dude hahahahhaha.

(see my first post)

[raulduke]

As you mentioned, Ableton Live's looper is incredibly powerful (it also does one shot playback  ).

I was playing with it last night, and with a few footswitches connected, it beats any of the hardware variants I have tried hands down.

Interfacing Live with a live guitar rig may be difficult though. Also, if you don't already own Ableton Live, a Computer/Laptop, and an Audio Interface, the cost will be prohibitive.

[Cortexturizer]

Some really interesting responses out there folks, thanks!

I'm not sure I understand all, but it seems like you're more interested in one-shot sampling than looping?
So you don't aim primarily at layering grooves or ambient textures going in a loop?
You don't need to store loops, so you're working with only one sample at a time?

If you could build your own looper, what footswitches would be there?

The reason why I am into one-shot sampling is because no drummer is perfect and we probably won't be playing with the click so it's better to retrigger the same phrase on the start of every bar than rely on drummers to keep their time [and my drummer is not an ace in this department]
Also, if I am to accompany let's say a riff consisting of 4 chords in a drone-y manner [one chord per bar], it would be nice having 4 pre-recorded "swelled in" ambient textures corresponding to every chord to trigger at the start of every bar [chord]. Something like this isn't possible with Boss, Digitech, nor the aforementioned VOX. Ok, it might be with the priciest Boss and Digi models but I haven't even looked cause I can't afford them.

But yeah, I'd like layering and ambient textures as well, of course, that stuff is amazing. you reverse it, you put it half-speed, you apply some reverb, and you have an instant recollection of times from your mothers womb.

If I could build my own looper, here's what footswitches it would have:

- Start / Trigger [one shot, loop]
- Record / Overdub [undo, redo]
- Stop [erase]
- Function [Reverse, Low pass filter]
- Speed [Half-speed, Double-time]
- Mic / Aux [on/off switch for either the mic or aux in]

There would be an expression pedal input that would control either the volume of the loop, either the volume coming from the Mic, or the volume coming from the Aux in. This way you could fade in or out your loops, OR, if you are running your singer or your entire band from the mixing console into a looper via a Mic or Aux you could swell in and out parts of their playing and sample it.
So a toggle or some sort of option button is required to assign the pedal to either, loop, mic or aux in volume.

There would be place to store your loops, I don't know 100 of them, hell 50 would be enough.

Stomping on the Start / Trigger button would one shot the pre-recorded phrase. Stomping on the switch again would retrigger it, so you could stutter the loop. At any time, you could go NEXT or PREVIOUS recorded phrase via an additional footswitch [like those Boss FSU thingies] and you could do this INSTANTLY, no that wait for two seconds bullshit. God.

Stomping on the Record / Overdub switch records the loop and stomping again takes you to overdub mode instantly. Stomping one more time, takes you out of the Overdub only to continuous playback. [record LED goes off and Start/Trigger LED goes on]. Undo and redo goes like on most available products.

Stop switch does stop right...and loop erase via holding it for an asignable number of seconds.

Function switch, puts the loop to Reverse or Low Pass filter depending on the state of a toggle switch or some sort of momentary indicator like on boss and digi products.

Speed, like the Function, but it's either half-speed or double speed.

Mic/Aux switch. Activates, or mixes either the Mic or Aux in signals into the loop. As I explained this could be gradually faded in via the expression pedal. This way you could have some sort of ambiance running even from your iPod and, waves or something, and then mix it in or out with the loop and your playing as you wish.

Ah, wishes...

[Cortexturizer]

As you mentioned, Ableton Live's looper is incredibly powerful (it also does one shot playback  ).

I was playing with it last night, and with a few footswitches connected, it beats any of the hardware variants I have tried hands down.

Interfacing Live with a live guitar rig may be difficult though. Also, if you don't already own Ableton Live, a Computer/Laptop, and an Audio Interface, the cost will be prohibitive.

Which footswitches did you use?
I own everything you mentioned luckily, so I am interested in this option.
In your opinion, could I achieve everything that I mentioned with Live Looper? Mic/Aux thing set aside?

[RobA]

Some really interesting responses out there folks, thanks!

I'm not sure I understand all, but it seems like you're more interested in one-shot sampling than looping?
So you don't aim primarily at layering grooves or ambient textures going in a loop?
You don't need to store loops, so you're working with only one sample at a time?

If you could build your own looper, what footswitches would be there?

The reason why I am into one-shot sampling is because no drummer is perfect and we probably won't be playing with the click so it's better to retrigger the same phrase on the start of every bar than rely on drummers to keep their time [and my drummer is not an ace in this department]
Also, if I am to accompany let's say a riff consisting of 4 chords in a drone-y manner [one chord per bar], it would be nice having 4 pre-recorded "swelled in" ambient textures corresponding to every chord to trigger at the start of every bar [chord]. Something like this isn't possible with Boss, Digitech, nor the aforementioned VOX. Ok, it might be with the priciest Boss and Digi models but I haven't even looked cause I can't afford them.

But yeah, I'd like layering and ambient textures as well, of course, that stuff is amazing. you reverse it, you put it half-speed, you apply some reverb, and you have an instant recollection of times from your mothers womb.

If I could build my own looper, here's what footswitches it would have:

- Start / Trigger [one shot, loop]
- Record / Overdub [undo, redo]
- Stop [erase]
- Function [Reverse, Low pass filter]
- Speed [Half-speed, Double-time]
- Mic / Aux [on/off switch for either the mic or aux in]

There would be an expression pedal input that would control either the volume of the loop, either the volume coming from the Mic, or the volume coming from the Aux in. This way you could fade in or out your loops, OR, if you are running your singer or your entire band from the mixing console into a looper via a Mic or Aux you could swell in and out parts of their playing and sample it.
So a toggle or some sort of option button is required to assign the pedal to either, loop, mic or aux in volume.

There would be place to store your loops, I don't know 100 of them, hell 50 would be enough.

Stomping on the Start / Trigger button would one shot the pre-recorded phrase. Stomping on the switch again would retrigger it, so you could stutter the loop. At any time, you could go NEXT or PREVIOUS recorded phrase via an additional footswitch [like those Boss FSU thingies] and you could do this INSTANTLY, no that wait for two seconds bullshit. God.

Stomping on the Record / Overdub switch records the loop and stomping again takes you to overdub mode instantly. Stomping one more time, takes you out of the Overdub only to continuous playback. [record LED goes off and Start/Trigger LED goes on]. Undo and redo goes like on most available products.

Stop switch does stop right...and loop erase via holding it for an asignable number of seconds.

Function switch, puts the loop to Reverse or Low Pass filter depending on the state of a toggle switch or some sort of momentary indicator like on boss and digi products.

Speed, like the Function, but it's either half-speed or double speed.

Mic/Aux switch. Activates, or mixes either the Mic or Aux in signals into the loop. As I explained this could be gradually faded in via the expression pedal. This way you could have some sort of ambiance running even from your iPod and, waves or something, and then mix it in or out with the loop and your playing as you wish.

Ah, wishes...

I don't see any way you can satisfy what you need without using a computer. You may not be able to find a perfect fit MIDI controller for what you want, but that's certainly DIYable.