SIP layouts?

[Scruffie]

Just wondering what members and Brian's of course thoughts on using SIP ICs would be?

On some of the more complex/IC heavy projects if they freed up enough space (they can be easier to layout for and do take up less space) at least for my preferences i'd rather a) smaller enclosure options/space for batteries, b) no 1/8w/ stand up resistors, that might just be me though, just find them a pain as the usual Tayda/Futurlec don't stock them and I don't have any in stock and i'm OCD about stand ups for reliability/looks and c) perhaps things like charge pumps built in to layouts that require them.

It does limit OpAmp choice but Tayda and Smallbear stock a small selection and a lot of the vintage projects used the standard 4558 anyway which can be bought in SIP.

Just an idea, if I want a build i'll buy a bean board regardless of if it goes against what I like 

[GermanCdn]

I've built a couple of 4558 SIP builds on vero (an Eternity build and something else I don't remember) and some fab (Rej's Octane uses a SIP 4558 if memory serves), can't say it was better or worse than DIPs, but I can see their usefulness in trying to maximize the smaller builds (though what you might gain in width, you could lose in height if you socketted it, which you would want to, because desoldering eight legs in line is worse than two sets of four, cause you can't really lever it).  I modded up a couple of Boss DS-1 and had to remove the SIP chips from those, destroyed at least one doing it.

I usually build in a size up mentality (i.e. 1590A builds go in 1590B boxes), and I share your aversion to 1/8W and standing resistors/diodes.

[Scruffie]

I've built a couple of 4558 SIP builds on vero (an Eternity build and something else I don't remember) and some fab (Rej's Octane uses a SIP 4558 if memory serves), can't say it was better or worse than DIPs, but I can see their usefulness in trying to maximize the smaller builds (though what you might gain in width, you could lose in height if you socketted it, which you would want to, because desoldering eight legs in line is worse than two sets of four, cause you can't really lever it).  I modded up a couple of Boss DS-1 and had to remove the SIP chips from those, destroyed at least one doing it.

I usually build in a size up mentality (i.e. 1590A builds go in 1590B boxes), and I share your aversion to 1/8W and standing resistors/diodes.

Not sure about the difference on vero, with PCB traces though you can come in from either side more easily rather than being blocked by half an IC you don't want to use.

I never socket OpAmps generally, should come out with a good solder pump though (the spring load kind, not the squeezy kind) i've successfully removed them with relative ease from PCBs before.

If I can cram a build in a 1590B, I will  If it's too complex, then I want it stuck in a 1590BB and nothing more if possible. I don't give my self extra space to work with and also find those to be the most common enclosures so it saves me specially buying something larger (usually at quite an increased cost).

[DutchMF]

I've had to deal with SIP only once, because of an Octane board kindly donated to me by Rej from GrindCustoms (thanks again mate, it's still in the works. Build report will follow, but I can't promise when...). I thought of a pretty neat solution to not owning (or wanting to order!) any SIP IC's. I'll look up the pics I took, be back with 'm shortly!

Paul

[RobA]

I bought a few of the 4558L's from Tayda because I figured they'd be easier for doing tight breadboarding because I could put all the op amp connections on one side of the breadboard and all the feedback/gain/filter structure on the other. I could see how this would make it possible to layout some circuits in a smaller space. I don't think the increase in height would be that much -- still below the height of the low profile electro caps.

I haven't really looked, but I haven't seen many SIP IC's for sale in the usual places.

To really help things get small, it's not that bad to solder in SMD op amps.

[Scruffie]

I bought a few of the 4558L's from Tayda because I figured they'd be easier for doing tight breadboarding because I could put all the op amp connections on one side of the breadboard and all the feedback/gain/filter structure on the other. I could see how this would make it possible to layout some circuits in a smaller space. I don't think the increase in height would be that much -- still below the height of the low profile electro caps.

Hm, hadn't thought of that, not a bad idea... shame they don't have SIP NE5532 but that could be a handy breadboard shortcut.

I haven't really looked, but I haven't seen many SIP IC's for sale in the usual places.

As I said, Tayda & Smallbear which I think a lot of guys here order through stock them, sure Mouser or Digikey have some... probably.

To really help things get small, it's not that bad to solder in SMD op amps.

Woah now, let's not get ahead of ourselves  Hand SMD puts a lot of people off, my self included.

[RobA]

...

To really help things get small, it's not that bad to solder in SMD op amps.

Woah now, let's not get ahead of ourselves  Hand SMD puts a lot of people off, my self included.

Yeah, I do understand that. It's pretty intimidating and is a general pain in the butt. But, for a few parts it wouldn't be that bad and could save a lot of space. Eight pin DIP's seems like a good place to start. It opens up the use of a bunch of the new op amps that don't seem to be coming out in though hole parts too.

[hammerheadmusicman]

...

To really help things get small, it's not that bad to solder in SMD op amps.

Woah now, let's not get ahead of ourselves  Hand SMD puts a lot of people off, my self included.

Yeah, I do understand that. It's pretty intimidating and is a general pain in the butt. But, for a few parts it wouldn't be that bad and could save a lot of space. Eight pin DIP's seems like a good place to start. It opens up the use of a bunch of the new op amps that don't seem to be coming out in though hole parts too.

SMD isn't that bad when you get used to it!

I've done a few things, and have done an SMD version of the Nautilus (boards being fabbed at the moment) using everything SMD except the charge pump, i seem to remember. It now would fit in a 1590B quite easily, and also fit nicely in to my up coming multi build. bit harder to trace problems, but hopefully that won't be an issue too often!

Don't be too scared of SMD, once you get going, it's not too bad at all!

George

[Scruffie]

...

To really help things get small, it's not that bad to solder in SMD op amps.

Woah now, let's not get ahead of ourselves  Hand SMD puts a lot of people off, my self included.

Yeah, I do understand that. It's pretty intimidating and is a general pain in the butt. But, for a few parts it wouldn't be that bad and could save a lot of space. Eight pin DIP's seems like a good place to start. It opens up the use of a bunch of the new op amps that don't seem to be coming out in though hole parts too.

I think I probably could do a few ICs in SMD if I tried, not that I have any desire too but in this case Bean has to think of his clientele, not everyone will be so easily convinced and I can see a lot of problems arising from beginners struggling with them.

SIPs are a nice compromise.

SMD isn't that bad when you get used to it!

I've done a few things, and have done an SMD version of the Nautilus (boards being fabbed at the moment) using everything SMD except the charge pump, i seem to remember. It now would fit in a 1590B quite easily, and also fit nicely in to my up coming multi build. bit harder to trace problems, but hopefully that won't be an issue too often!

Don't be too scared of SMD, once you get going, it's not too bad at all!

George

[RobA]

... but in this case Bean has to think of his clientele, not everyone will be so easily convinced and I can see a lot of problems arising from beginners struggling with them.

Yeah, that really is the big question and it's a good point. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out over the next couple of years.

Back to the thread, are there many IC's other than op amps that are done as SIP's?

It seems to me that a good place to start with this idea would be to do one of the 1590A layouts of one of the classic designs that used SIP's.

[Scruffie]

... but in this case Bean has to think of his clientele, not everyone will be so easily convinced and I can see a lot of problems arising from beginners struggling with them.

Yeah, that really is the big question and it's a good point. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out over the next couple of years.

Back to the thread, are there many IC's other than op amps that are done as SIP's?

It seems to me that a good place to start with this idea would be to do one of the 1590A layouts of one of the classic designs that used SIP's.

There's a couple of OTAs, not quite the same as a CA3080/13600 but they could be converted and there's a few mini power amp chips, haven't looked in to much else.

[RobA]

Ohh! A couple of those OTA/VCA chips look interesting (looking at Small Bear).

[jkokura]

Yeah, I'm into developing something. Narrow it down to a specific request or two, and I can start developing single in line package projects.

What about something simple like the a son of screamer type drive to start?

Jacob

[Scruffie]

Ohh! A couple of those OTA/VCA chips look interesting (looking at Small Bear).

They are, a bit better noise specs than the 3080/13700 I think too, but not sure how many Steve has in stock as they're NOS I think.

Yeah, I'm into developing something. Narrow it down to a specific request or two, and I can start developing single in line package projects.

What about something simple like the a son of screamer type drive to start?

Jacob

I was more thinking of using them for space saving on complex projects specifically than just for the sake of using them as I mentioned, there's no other benefit to them as far as I can see.

Other than those special SIP OTAs which have different properties.

[billstein]

Yeah, I'm into developing something. Narrow it down to a specific request or two, and I can start developing single in line package projects.

What about something simple like the a son of screamer type drive to start?

Jacob

If son of screamer is the same as a tube screamer then yes please.