Duplicate listings from Japan

[lars]

I've noticed a rash of the exact same guitars being listed by multiple seller IDs from Japan on Ebay. It's an obvious way of flooding duplicate listings for the same item, without being flagged for duplicate listings (there's a loophole where you can list your item over and over, as long as you use different seller IDs). These listings even use the exact same pictures and descriptions! It's not a case of laziness out of just having a bunch of those guitars. These are more rare, older guitars, where there is obviously only one available.
Here's an example:
future_japan:  item 263584749451; japanprouduct:  item 323427883626; jpsoundsguitars:  item 163230602676; japanretroshop:  item 163239833794
This guitar has been relisted multiple times, by multiple sellers, every day for over a month now. And these Japan sellers have been doing it with other guitars as well (or it's just one guy with multiple accounts). What kind of scam is this, and why isn't Ebay doing anything about it?

[pickdropper]

If I understand it right, it's not exactly a scam (at least not usually).  I think most are brokers that don't actually own the instrument they are selling.  If you buy it, theybin turn purchase it and send it to you.  I'm assuming if more than one sell it that somebody is getting a refund.

They are basically counting on the fact that most people won't have direct access to the guitar at the cheaper price.

I guess some would call it a scam, some would call it capitalism.  If my understanding is right, most people who do this do end up with the guitar or a refund.

[ahiddentableau]

Interesting post.  I also noticed this over the last year or so, mostly while crusing for an old shortscale fender.  There are multiple sellers like what you described for a couple of musicmasters that have been seeing for months. 

But I'm also wondering about Fender guitar parts.  Because while I'm willing to believe that the Japanese guitars are functioning along the lines of what pickdropper described, I've noticed things with the parts that are just plain odd.  For example, there was a particular musicmaster neck that had a third string tree installed.  It was initially offered by what seems to be a reputable vintage seller in the American south.  Then that listing disappeared, and about a month later the neck and body (which was also distinctive--it was a bad silver refin over the original Dakota Red) came up from a different seller--this time in the northeast (New York, if memory serves).  The original guitar never sold (on eBay).  But the parts came up quickly.  I'd love to know what was going on there, and with "vintage" Fender parts on eBay more generally.  I've noticed similar things with other guitar parts--listings of an item disappearing then reappearing in identical terms but with a new seller in a different part of the country.  Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...

This is the neck -- I just checked and it's still listed on the site:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1967-Fender-Musicmaster-II-guitar-neck-rosewood/132487491440?hash=item1ed8deaf70:g:VmEAAOSw8NVab9-7

[lars]

I'm assuming if more than one sell it that somebody is getting a refund.

It would be hilarious to "buy it now" on all three listings simultaneously as different buyers. No one "person" would have claim as to being first, so which two get a refund and who actually gets the guitar? I guess the one who paid the most, but that means the other two have to break their agreement to sell the "buy it now" listing. Plus you then have the proof they gave the guitar to somebody based on the fact they offered more money than others, but it wasn't an auction. What a deserved mess that would create! Maybe then Ebay would get the point that they shouldn't allow this dishonest practice.

[pickdropper]

Interesting post.  I also noticed this over the last year or so, mostly while crusing for an old shortscale fender.  There are multiple sellers like what you described for a couple of musicmasters that have been seeing for months. 

But I'm also wondering about Fender guitar parts.  Because while I'm willing to believe that the Japanese guitars are functioning along the lines of what pickdropper described, I've noticed things with the parts that are just plain odd.  For example, there was a particular musicmaster neck that had a third string tree installed.  It was initially offered by what seems to be a reputable vintage seller in the American south.  Then that listing disappeared, and about a month later the neck and body (which was also distinctive--it was a bad silver refin over the original Dakota Red) came up from a different seller--this time in the northeast (New York, if memory serves).  The original guitar never sold (on eBay).  But the parts came up quickly.  I'd love to know what was going on there, and with "vintage" Fender parts on eBay more generally.  I've noticed similar things with other guitar parts--listings of an item disappearing then reappearing in identical terms but with a new seller in a different part of the country.  Something is rotten in the state of Denmark...

This is the neck -- I just checked and it's still listed on the site:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1966-1967-Fender-Musicmaster-II-guitar-neck-rosewood/132487491440?hash=item1ed8deaf70:g:VmEAAOSw8NVab9-7

Yeah, not sure about the neck.  There have been eBay scams forever with sellers that take the photos from other auctions and put them in their ad.  It's pretty common on Craigslist as well.

It's possible that's going on with some of the Japan listings as well, but I'm pretty sure some of them are just attempting to broker available guitars that they don't own yet.  Since it's not disclosed as that, it's definitely on the murky side of ethics.

[lars]

It's possible that's going on with some of the Japan listings as well, but I'm pretty sure some of them are just attempting to broker available guitars that they don't own yet.  Since it's not disclosed as that, it's definitely on the murky side of ethics.

Actually, that same guitar popped up again in a new listing by another "seller"...and it is completely illegal what they are doing. It falls under the category of "Item location misrepresentation". Each listing describes the same guitar as being in a different place. This, of course, is impossible. By law, you have to disclose the true location of an item you're selling. For example, I can't say I have an item for sale in Florida, when it's actually in California. Total scam on so many levels.
At least they get style points in the new listing's description: "Features - Note: arrived Italian Bizarre! Is the same as that guitar and G LOVE. There are parts replacement, but atmosphere, it is the performance of both feel good."

[Govmnt_Lacky]

Ebay will not do anything unless they absolutely have to (prodded by a buyer typically) and 95% of the time, their decision will favor the buyer.

[Aentons]

...and it is completely illegal what they are doing. It falls under the category of "Item location misrepresentation". Each listing describes the same guitar as being in a different place. This, of course, is impossible. By law, you have to disclose the true location of an item you're selling. For example, I can't say I have an item for sale in Florida, when it's actually in California. Total scam on so many levels.

I agree that eBay should do something about this behavior, but what you are talking about is a violation of eBay's Terms of Service which is entirely different from "illegal".

ToS violation remediation actions are completely at the discretion of eBay.

[lars]

I agree that eBay should do something about this behavior, but what you are talking about is a violation of eBay's Terms of Service which is entirely different from "illegal".

ToS violation remediation actions are completely at the discretion of eBay.

Falsely telling someone you own something and then trying to sell it from a false location is absolutely illegal. It has nothing to do with Ebay's rules. People get busted on Craigslist all the time for trying to pull this same scam.

To further beat the dead horse, here is what comes up when you click on the question mark next to International shipping:
"International Shipping - items may be subject to customs processing depending on the item's declared value.
Sellers set the item's declared value and must comply with customs declaration laws.
As the buyer, you should be aware of possible:
- delays from customs inspection.
- import duties and taxes which buyers must pay.
- brokerage fees payable at the point of delivery.
Your country's customs office can offer more details, or visit eBay's page on international trade."

None of the bold, italicized, words have to do with Ebay's ToS. Those are set by governmental laws, which these sellers are trying to skate.

[bcalla]

I don't bother watching the listings of Japanese sellers anymore.  I don't think they will ever get caught because nobody will ever buy their items.

I've seen this many times.  I own a 1968 Guild Starfire V, so I follow vintage Starfires (all models) on eBay just to keep track of the value.  Depending on the specific model and assuming good condition or better, they should sell for $1200 - $2000.  A legitimate retailer might ask as high as $2500, but they won't get it.  For them it is a starting point to cut a deal or take a trade.

These Japanese sellers list them for between $3200 and $4200 - 2 or 3 times the value.  The same guitar (they foolishly show photos of the serial numbers!!!) can be simultaneously listed by 3 or 4 sellers.  It never occurred to me that they were brokers, I guess that makes sense.

[ahiddentableau]

I don't bother watching the listings of Japanese sellers anymore.  I don't think they will ever get caught because nobody will ever buy their items.

I've seen this many times.  I own a 1968 Guild Starfire V, so I follow vintage Starfires (all models) on eBay just to keep track of the value.  Depending on the specific model and assuming good condition or better, they should sell for $1200 - $2000.  A legitimate retailer might ask as high as $2500, but they won't get it.  For them it is a starting point to cut a deal or take a trade.

These Japanese sellers list them for between $3200 and $4200 - 2 or 3 times the value.  The same guitar (they foolishly show photos of the serial numbers!!!) can be simultaneously listed by 3 or 4 sellers.  It never occurred to me that they were brokers, I guess that makes sense.

Japanese sellers definitely have high prices for some items, but I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion.  Older American-made guitars command much higher prices in the Japanese domestic market.  This is because Japanese guitar players have internalized the idea that Japanese-made instruments are inferior to American (and, if you can believe it, even Mexican) made instruments.  As a result, the prices for "vintage" American guitars there can be crazy high. 

So I don't question the price so much as I question the point of listing in on eBay outside of the Japanese market.  I think it might be the case that prices are similarly inflated in other countries outside of North America, and that's what the Japanese sellers are going for.  I know Europeans sometimes talk about high prices in their respective countries, and I know the supply of American made instruments in other parts of Asia can be lousy (or, at the very least, it was that way 10 years ago).  So my guess is that they're catering to places where the supply of such items is poor, but where American sellers are reluctant to ship--and that's an important consideration, because most American sellers will not ship anywhere at all exotic.  Hell, half of them won't even ship to Canada, let alone to Indonesia/Vietnam/insert Asian country name here.  So there might be a method to their madness after all.