Volume Pedal Placement, buffers and 25k or 250k

[claytushaywood]

So I want to get the best volume pedal swell I can get.  I'm planning on placing it after a compressor for the most part and wouldnt be opposed to using a buffer before it.  (i use a couple germanium pedals semi often like a tonebender and sometimes a germ fuzz face).

Would the compressor alone warrant using the 25k ernie ball? Or should I get a 25k EB and also put a buffer inside?  pretty much anytime I'm using it for swells or volume control there will be a pedal on before it.

What do you all think?  what would be the best choice for mostly swell work with my setup?  maybe even a different volume pedal?  I had a george dennis at one point and an optical goodrich at one point (both optical) and I didnt like either of them they both had uneven tapers

Recommendations of any kind appreciated! Thanks!

[sonnyboy27]

The 25k is for low impedance signals. If it's coming out of a buffered pedal then 25k will work with anything. If you're running into the pedal without using a buffer and you're using passive pickups then you'll want the 250k. You don't need to put a buffer in the VP if you have a buffer anywhere before it in your chain. My blog has a write up on the VP JR mod and the theory around various impedances that you might find helpful.

[claytushaywood]

The 25k is for low impedance signals. If it's coming out of a buffered pedal then 25k will work with anything. If you're running into the pedal without using a buffer and you're using passive pickups then you'll want the 250k. You don't need to put a buffer in the VP if you have a buffer anywhere before it in your chain. My blog has a write up on the VP JR mod and the theory around various impedances that you might find helpful.

where's your blog? and yeh i know that much about the 250k vs 25k, i'm curious about these specific questions

-is a compressor pedal (when on) on enough buffering of the circuit to be able to use the 25k ernie ball?

modding 25k ernie ball with a buffer
1.  I know a lot of people do this does anyone have a link to some info on a how to? 
2.  Like wouldnt just putting a buffer before the 25k be just as effective as installing one inside the actual volume pedal?
3. Or do I need to install one inside so I can buffer the input and the output? (and the tuner out would be pretty sweet I'd imagine- because the tuner out on the regular ernie balls is what really kills your signal, at least in my experience)

Or has all this already been discussed here?  I've done trial and error with quite a few high quality volume pedals and have yet to find a really nice one for swells!

[kaeisy]

You find Stephen´s blog in the signature of his post  . If you haven´t already purchased a volume pedal, the Ernie Ball MVP may also be an alternative, as it is an active volume pedal.

[JC103]

In a TB loop I usually have a Cornish buffer feeding a 250k EB vol. pedal. Works like a charm! I always noticed loading from the EB so then I went this route and have never looked back. It also gives you the chance to feed your tuner with a buffered split and tune silently on stage.

[sonnyboy27]

I imagine that a compressor would be enough since it'll have a low impedance output (I'm assuming 1k or lower).

Kaisey is right, it's in my sig. But here's a link to the article https://prentisseffects.blogspot.com/2017/01/ernie-ball-vp-jr-tone-suck-mod.html You can substitute your own numbers into the equations in the article if you want to know what's going on from a more theoretical side.

I haven't tried the MVP but it's cool looking. I personally prefer the Dunlop VP Mini because I can adjust the tension of the throw of the pedal. Also, no string breakage which has been an issue for me.

Lastly, where are your germanium pedals located in the chain?

[claytushaywood]

I imagine that a compressor would be enough since it'll have a low impedance output (I'm assuming 1k or lower).

Kaisey is right, it's in my sig. But here's a link to the article https://prentisseffects.blogspot.com/2017/01/ernie-ball-vp-jr-tone-suck-mod.html You can substitute your own numbers into the equations in the article if you want to know what's going on from a more theoretical side.

I haven't tried the MVP but it's cool looking. I personally prefer the Dunlop VP Mini because I can adjust the tension of the throw of the pedal. Also, no string breakage which has been an issue for me.

Lastly, where are your germanium pedals located in the chain?

Sorry about not catching the link in your signature.

I actually found your page a little while after I made this post.  So if I follow your how to- wouldnt the 25k ernie ball be the best choice as the lower resistance pot works better with low impedance signal right?

And I put my germaniums right after my pickups.

[sonnyboy27]

Not quite. Because the impedance between your guitar and the 25k pot are so close you'll actually lose a lot of high frequencies. You want to send a low into a high. By adding the buffer you're sending your low impedance guitar signal into a high impedance input on the buffer. The buffer then makes your signal a super low output impedance before it hits the volume pot (which is high from a relative point of view at that point).

The first equation in the article deals with this if you have a guitar (R1) at 15k, and a volume pot (R2) at 25K. Then when you substitute those values you get a resistance ratio of 0.625 (62.5%). This doesn't directly mean that you've lost about 40% of your high end but it shows that your signal is really having a tough time pushing through when it gets to that point.

[claytushaywood]

So then all the people using 25k volume pots with active pickups and buffers are incorrect?  why does ernie ball advertise the 25k volume pedal for active  pickups and buffered signals?

Impedance has always baffled me. 

[claytushaywood]

and wouldnt a super low impedance buffer into a 25k pot be enough of an impedance change?

hence pickups at 5-7k get 250k pots- and a super low impedance buffer drops that 5-7k quite a bit so that 25k would still be a long ways away? 

again i dont know much about impedance but... this and my post right above here?

[sonnyboy27]

and wouldnt a super low impedance buffer into a 25k pot be enough of an impedance change?

hence pickups at 5-7k get 250k pots- and a super low impedance buffer drops that 5-7k quite a bit so that 25k would still be a long ways away? 

again i dont know much about impedance but... this and my post right above here?

My apologies. I thought when you were referencing "low-impedance" you meant straight from your guitar not out of a pedal. A 25K impedance is the recommended one to use for active and buffered signals because the impedance matching provides a better voltage transfer coming straight out of your guitar (as you had mentioned). Ernie Ball makes those recommendations assuming you're coming directly out of your guitar into the volume pedal.

In fact, either value will work with a buffered signal. You may have to bump the taper switch in the 250k to get the sweep to feel right. But I'd go with a 250k so that it can handle a buffered or non buffered signal with passive pickups.

Also, impedance is one of the more confusing topics you'll find when it comes to this stuff. I had to ask a bunch of questions and read a ton of articles before posting that article and it's still confusing to me most of the time. I just go by the rule of "Low feeds High" for audio and that tends to work out. But there are exceptions that someone much more knowledgeable (like midwayfair) would be able to explain.

[claytushaywood]

and wouldnt a super low impedance buffer into a 25k pot be enough of an impedance change?

hence pickups at 5-7k get 250k pots- and a super low impedance buffer drops that 5-7k quite a bit so that 25k would still be a long ways away? 

again i dont know much about impedance but... this and my post right above here?

My apologies. I thought when you were referencing "low-impedance" you meant straight from your guitar not out of a pedal. A 25K impedance is the recommended one to use for active and buffered signals because the impedance matching provides a better voltage transfer coming straight out of your guitar (as you had mentioned). Ernie Ball makes those recommendations assuming you're coming directly out of your guitar into the volume pedal.

In fact, either value will work with a buffered signal. You may have to bump the taper switch in the 250k to get the sweep to feel right. But I'd go with a 250k so that it can handle a buffered or non buffered signal with passive pickups.

Also, impedance is one of the more confusing topics you'll find when it comes to this stuff. I had to ask a bunch of questions and read a ton of articles before posting that article and it's still confusing to me most of the time. I just go by the rule of "Low feeds High" for audio and that tends to work out. But there are exceptions that someone much more knowledgeable (like midwayfair) would be able to explain.

I was referring to using your page to add a buffer to the volume pedal  (i may just put it in a box for flexibility)  Wouldnt it be better to add it to a 25k EB volume pedal?  I was thinking a 25k could double as an expression pedal more often than a 250k?  maybe? 

[sonnyboy27]

I was referring to using your page to add a buffer to the volume pedal  (i may just put it in a box for flexibility)  Wouldnt it be better to add it to a 25k EB volume pedal?  I was thinking a 25k could double as an expression pedal more often than a 250k?  maybe? 

One is not necessarily "better" than the other. In fact you get a better voltage transfer ratio with the 250k from a technical standpoint. It won't matter that much from an auditory standpoint but it is technically better.

As for the expression situation, I believe any expression pedal that works with CV should be fine since you're just looking at what the difference is in voltage between two points. The VP is simply a voltage divider so I don't believe the value of the pot will make much of a difference for that kind of expression control.

[claytushaywood]

I was referring to using your page to add a buffer to the volume pedal  (i may just put it in a box for flexibility)  Wouldnt it be better to add it to a 25k EB volume pedal?  I was thinking a 25k could double as an expression pedal more often than a 250k?  maybe? 

One is not necessarily "better" than the other. In fact you get a better voltage transfer ratio with the 250k from a technical standpoint. It won't matter that much from an auditory standpoint but it is technically better.

As for the expression situation, I believe any expression pedal that works with CV should be fine since you're just looking at what the difference is in voltage between two points. The VP is simply a voltage divider so I don't believe the value of the pot will make much of a difference for that kind of expression control.

so there's really not a good reason active guitar's use 25k pots and ernie ball made this 25k volume pedal?

[sonnyboy27]

so there's really not a good reason active guitar's use 25k pots and ernie ball made this 25k volume pedal?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's probably a better sweep from a guitar volume standpoint. I've read a lot of people on forums saying that 25K has a substantially better sweep after a buffer or in their effects loop. I don't have any issues with the sweep of my 250k VP with a buffer in it/in front of it, I just change the little switch inside the 250K to get a different sweep. I guess you could also swap in a parallel resistor as well to change the taper and value if I really wanted; I think that's what the switch inside is doing anyways.

Keep in mind that I'm not a heavy user of my volume pedal; mostly swells and muting my signal. If you're trying to use it to clean up your signal early in your chain (I use my post drives) then a 25K may be what you're looking for. But since I'm using mine after my drives I don't think it makes as much of a difference. I play with my guitar's volume control before the drives and then use the volume pedal to get my driven sound at whatever volume I want.