Chain Order and Buffers

[Jamiroking]

Hi Guys,
This is my first post so thanks in advance and I'd appreciate any help you guys could offer.

Basically I have my pedal board set up as in the picture with Mogami cables with switchcraft connectors I've made. The cables all seem to be fine by themselves to I think the tone suck is a larger problem with the chain. I love the way these pedals sound and ordered them functionally in the way I use them but it seems like there's quite a bit of tone suck and the sound I get sounds very flat, not the usual well rounded sound I love the princeton for. My current chain order:

Dynacomp/Ross compressor clone>>Boss PS-5>>Foxrox Zim OD>>ZVex Box of Rock Clone>>Zvex Fuzz Factory Clone>>DOD Super Stereo Chorus(2nd output feeds TU-12 Boss Tuner)>>Fulltone Supa-Trem>>Boss DD-20>>Line6 DL-4

I have 2 questions:
1) Would a buffer at the start help with this tone suck issue? I thought having some buffered pedals mixed in would have handled this.

2) Is there anything of this chain order that looks out of place to any of you guys?



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[jimmybjj]

I can't really answer either question with much authority but generally a buffer is most desirable at the front or the end of your chain. Buffers can help with "tone suck" but they can also color your sound (this can be a good or a bad thing depending on your ears.) Well until someone a little more knowledgeable than me comes along here is a link for a little reading. Good luck.

From General Guitar Gadgets
http://www.generalguitargadgets.com/projects/15-boostersrouters/75-transistor-buffer-project

What does a Buffer do?

Your signal chain is everything between your guitar and amplifier input, including cables. As your signal chain gets more complex (adding more stompboxes and patch cables) you may start to notice a loss of treble in your guitar sound. Your sound may sound much more dull than it does when you plug guitar straight into the amp with a short cable. Check out this Information about Impedance and Buffers for some information on why this happens.

This Pete Cornish Case against True Bypass Article may do something to explain why a little buffer stompbox may be something useful to you. I believe there is  "A Case For True Bypass" as well, but the article might give you a good idea of what a buffer can do in your signal chain.

Please note that almost all Boss, some Ibanez and some other commercial pedals use a non-bypassed buffer. This means if you have a Boss pedal in your signal chain, then you probably already have a buffer in signal path even when the pedal is in bypass mode.

[stecykmi]

try taking the DOD pedal out of the rig and see if that helps. most of the boss pedals have pretty decent buffers, but some of the DOD weren't so good.

i'm surprised you put up with the stock DOD switching. They have a few cool circuits, I find the switching really unreliable.

[jkokura]

Great pedalboard! You can do a lot with all that.

One thing that's often recommended here is a good buffer and a true bypass looper. I don't know if you need or want to go that route, but you have a few pedals that are reputed to be tone suckers on the interweb. Particularly the PS-5, DL4 And DD-20.

Heres what I would do. Take your shortest patch cord (4-6 feet is good) and plug that into you guitar and an AB box. Use a normal jumper and go into the pedal board. Then use two equal lengths of patch cable (10-20 feet) and run one from the other AB box output and the other from your board both into the amp. Now play just through the amp, no pedalboard. Tune the amp until you love the sound your getting. Noe turn ALL you pedals off and play through the board. Can you hear a difference?

Chances are you will. But now, tune the amp until you get the sound you loved straight into the amp. If you can get that sound, your board and setup are fine. If you can't, then you need to look at buffers and loopers.

Jacob

[Jamiroking]

@jimmybjj - for the link. I've seen this and a few other places and its partly why I'm so confused. My common sense would tell me this many pedals should have a buffer but a lot of places say the job is taken care of by the buffered pedals in my chain.

@ stecykmi - I was wondering how long it would take for someone to spot the DOD Its one of the first 3 pedals I bought back in 7th grade and its mainly just on my board as a remnant of a bunch of smooth jazz I had to play for school in college. I've actually gotten some compliments on the chorus since I think I paid like $20 for it. I don't really have a need for a really nice one so it stays, especially since it splits my signal for the tuner. As for the switching, I haven't really had a problem but are you talking about modding in a 3pdt?

@jkokura - Thanks a lot! I've tried A/Bing it (minus the AB box since I don't have one) and have decided that its noticeably different and I'm not one of these mojo guys that hear differences between caps and resistors. I knew the DL-4 is supposed to be a big sucker but I tried the AB without it and still could hear the difference. Basically, is this something that could possibly fixed by a buffer or would that be redundant since the boss pedals are already buffered? I just want to know since I'd be building it myself.

[jkokura]

First off, you didn't mention where the Wah pedal is in your chain. That may be a culprit in this too. The list of pedals I see that could potentially be causing you some issues are: the Wah, the PS-5, the DOD, the DL4 and perhaps the DD20. Can't say for sure, I don't have any of them at this moment. I had a DL4 a long while back...

Basically, a buffer at the start or finish won't really help you if you're hearing a difference right now. You've got buffers happening at the beginning and ending of your chain already, so it's not an impedance issue persay, which is really what buffers help with. But what may be happening is that all this buffering is being done in all sorts of detrimental ways. For instance, with the DL4 and the PS-5 you've got some significant AD-DA happening (Analog to Digital, then Digital to Analog processing). Your sound is being changed, literally, into a different media format, and then changed back. A buffer won't fix that for you. What's worse is that in both of those two pedals cases, there are noted volume drops happening. In order to make the pedals work in a functional way, the AD-DA is taking over and it means that your dry 'tone' is ALWAYS being affected by your effects. There's no real 'bypass' happening, it's just the effect is being turned off or on. The problem is that the quality of the AD-DA is kinda old and cheap technology. For instance, users note that the Echo Park, a line 6 delay pedal which uses newer AD-DA technology, is a much better sounding pedal in bypass vs. the DL-4

You really have three options as I see it. There could be a fourth, and that's just to live with it.

One option is to try your best to dial out the 'problem' using your amp. You can use your amp's tone controls to really try and fix the problem as best you can, and for most guitarists this is enough. However, it sounds to me like this isn't enough for you, cause you've tried it. It's a free option though.

Second option is to go the route of some sort of bypass looper to help you 'true bypass' the culprits and give you some control over the routing of the pedal. With a good buffer (without tone issues) at the beginning and the end, you can have much more control over your sound, because the problem pedals are completely removed from the signal path when they're not in use. The problem with this options is that some pedals, like the DL4 and PS-5, may require you to push them on or off using the looper, and then will require an extra step to change the preset or tap in the tempo or activate the vibrato function. One of the coolest features (IMO) of the PS-5 or 6 is that feature where you can set it up to do a vibrato arm sort of maneuver by momentarily stepping on the pedal. Very cool, but now it becomes slightly awkward to do because of the looper. Lots make it work and that's because a true bypass looper can be a useful tool when applied correctly. It'll cost some to build or buy it, and it'll double the number of cables on your board, but it may be a good solution. Expect to spend money to make this happen.

Third option is to replace the culprits with non-offending options that have a similar function if not sound, or modify the ones that do. For instance, DL-4's have popular mods which can totally change the bypass sound. I don't think PS-5's are moddable, but the DOD can be true bypass modded I'm sure. Another option in this case is to simply trade or sell and buy a different pedal which may not offend. In the case of the DL-4, I think there are many popular options out there depending on the settings you use. The PS-5 might be harder to replace, but the Micro Pog is a good option if all you use it for is a polyphonic octave thing. The DOD is probably the easiest to replace, as a good CE-3 will sound infinitely better both in bypass and in function and you'll get the stereo function. There are any number of good stereo choruses available. You may spend some money here, but it might be less than a bypass looper, and it might also be more depending on how crazy you get.

In my humble opinion, I would choose a combination of option 1 and option 3. I like bypass loopers if you're using a big pedalboard with awkward stomping situations personally, but I don't like them because of the extra hassle of trying to work them into a rig. It can be very, very good, but most of the pedals I use (and I have more than 40, maybe more than 50 pedals really) either already are true bypass, or have good buffer circuits in them, or I deal with the poor bypass sound they have. If I had an offending pedal, then I would dump it for a functional equivalent without the problem. That's part of the reason I don't have a DL-4 anymore.

So in your case, my recommended pedal board evolution might go something like this: Master Bypass Looper with Tuner out (One switch bypasses entire board for straight sound, second switch mutes signal and sends to tuner, this an addition to help you both test the theory of your pedal board and allows you to tune quietly from now on)>>Dynacomp/Ross compressor clone>>Boss PS-5 (I deal with the bypass sound, has 1st buffer)>>Foxrox Zim OD (Truebypass?)>>ZVex Box of Rock Clone (True bypass)>>Zvex Fuzz Factory Clone (True bypass)>>DIY Porkbarrel OR Little Angel(Replaces DOD, now true bypass)>>Fulltone Supa-Trem (True bypass)>>Echo Park/Hardwire DL-8/DIY Delay (replaces DL-4, lose presets, gain better sound, tap available with Echo Park, True Bypass with Hardwire or DIY options)>>Boss DD-20 (Output Buffer)

So with a couple good changes, things could really change for the better for you. My option recommended above may only cost you the price of the Bypass/Mute switch, because you can easily sell the DL-4 and buy a delay to replace it, with a little leftover with the price of the sold DOD to buy the parts for the DIY chorus. If you want to buy a chorus, then the DL-4 and the DOD chorus will buy you a Delay mentioned above and a used CE-3 for analog chorus goodness. CE-2's are more expensive, but they're a highly recommended option if you can get a good deal. If you have the cash to build your own Delay and switch, the DL-4 and the DOD may get you almost enough cash to get a CE-2, and that would be my first pick.

Jacob

[Myramyd]

Hey Jacob,

In your opinion, do you think the "ideal" pedal board would go something like this?

guitar > buffer > all true-bypass pedals > buffer > amp

This is assuming you wouldn't need a looper if all pedals were TB. Or is it better to have the looper to make the total wiring length shorter when pedals are not in use?

Just curious. I know you can't always get rid of all the pedals you like/need.

J

[jkokura]

Perhaps something like that. In my ideal pedalboard, I don't really think about that stuff really. I would only think about that if for some reason, like the OP, I was finding dissatisfaction with my tone in some way.

I guess if all the pedals I wanted to use had true bypass, then yes the ideal pedal board would look like that. But really I consider the bypass method AFTER the function of the pedal. For instance, I really like the Boss DD-3, 5, 6 and I'm about to get a 7 in a trade. I really like those pedals, and I'd use them because of how they function. If I really cared about the bypass, I'd only use the DL-8 from Hardwire, because it features relay based true bypass. It's similar in function, but it doesn't have the external tap that the DD-5 and 7 have, and a slightly different sound. I have a DL-8 as well by the way, and I used to have an Echo Park (I would get one of those again if I could). Anyway, I hope you see what I'm saying, that the function of the pedals is more important to me than the bypass.

HOWEVER, that's all dependant on the tone of my sound. The OP's real concern is that he can hear an audible difference in his tone when using his board, and he doesn't like it. I understand that completely! Tone is a very subjective and personal thing, and it interferes with creative processes, I get that. So if I had a pedal that was causing that problem, and even if I loved the function of it, I would find a way for it to no longer be and issue for me. In that case, I would have to either mod it, replace it, or put it in a bypass loop.

My ideal pedalboard... now that's a separate topic really. I'm looking at the board I'm using on a consistent basis right now, and it's got lots of buffers on it. Micro Pog, DL-8, El Capistan, Verbzilla. I have a few truebypass pedals on there, including my Com-Plex compressor/preamp, my overdrives, and my tremolo.

All the pedals I build are true bypass. I've not thought about what would happen if I only used my handbuilt pedals... I should look at building a few little buffer boxes to have around in case I need one.

Jacob

[Jamiroking]

Wow thanks for all the input! To address the few omissions I've made, The wah/volume pedal is after the Supa Trem and before the delays and is optical if it makes a difference. I couldn't be happier with it and haven't heard any tone loss especially compared to the old cry baby I used to have. The foxrox zim is true bypass.

I know the DL-4 is not the greatest delay out there but I use it basically as a noise box/looper and let the dd-20 do the heavy lifting for delay. Because of this, I'm not sure if I could really find a replacement for it. I'm planning on building an expression pedal to control both it and the PS-5 (which is why the volume looks like it's in time out by itself right now) and I really don't know of anything that will allow me to warp a delay to get some great swirling noise without having to be bent over the knobs.

I agree with you on the PS-5, I find myself using the one-step vibrato arm more than any other feature on it and a looper would really be a hindrance to that. Plus, If I build a looper, there's less room on the board for pedals!

I think for me (being lazy, cheap, and in the habit of tearing my stuff apart) the most attractive option is doing some mods. If the mod Stecykmi was talking about is adding in a 3pdt, I could easily rig that up as true bypass. As for the DL-4, I have it last in line so I could loop a signal with delay from the DD-20. You think it's worth it to switch them just so I could have the DD-20 buffer at the end?

[jkokura]

No problem.

I would say even doing a loop box for the DOD might produce great results.

As for the DL4, it makes sense to have it last, but it could be a culprit in your tone issues. Switching the DD-20 as last won't solve the problems, it will just 'delay' them... see what I did there?

Yeah, modding or bypass looping the DOD, and perhaps the DL-4 could potentially help. There are modification details available online. I think Dan over at T1M has great rates for modding pedals, but if you're interested in it I highly recommend doing them yourself.

Jacob

[Myramyd]

I also have the PS-5 on my board and it doesn't mess with my tone EXCEPT if I switch it to the "T.Arm" or "Flutter" settings. That loads down the tone pretty substantially, basically unusable in my opinion--as it creates a major tone suckage in my setup, since it seems like the pedal is in "listening" mode. But once I turn the dial to another setting I don't notice any tone degradation at all. That's just with my setup though--YMMV.

In fact, if you have that mode active all the time, maybe that is the cause of the issue? I know if I turn mine to that setting, the whole amp/pedal chain sounds like garbage.

J

[Jamiroking]

Thanks a lot guys

Real interesting idea with the PS-5 setting. I would have never thought that would make a difference but I'm going to check that as soon as I get home.

As for the DOD, I think I'll try to figure out a way to stick a 3pdt in there to get it true bypass. This would also help with the "stompability" of the pedal since as it is right now, I kind of have to tip toe around the other switches to get to that low profile DOD button.

After finishing those three clone builds a while ago, I've been looking for a reason to break out the soldering iron again. I'm not really looking for any other pedals (minus a good DIY ring mod that I wish Brian would make! pleeeeeeeeeeease,Brian!) so these mods look like it might give me the excuse I've been looking for!

[Jamiroking]

Well! It seems my tone was dying a death by a thousand cuts!

First, I can't believe it but Myramyd was completely right about the PS-5. Setting it to either the T Arm or Flutter setting really muddies the tone. This could be exactly what Jacob was talking about with the AD-DA (analog to digital, digital to analog).

2nd and 3rd are my own dumb fault. It seems I must have recently clipped that top cable when putting on the lid as it has a bit of a loose connection which is unnoticable unless you move it. But if it isn't in the right position, the signal definitely takes a hit.

Finally, The input on my compressor was being shorted a bit. If anyone has seen the gut shots of these that I posted, they probably won't be too surprised.

Thanks for all the help, guys. I'll probably go head and try those mods on the DOD and maybe even some on the DL-4 anyways because all this talk has gotten me itching to start building again.