Sound at Large Concert Venues

[bcalla]

I need some music professionals (I am merely a hack / hobbyist who never got beyond the high school dance level of performing) to help me understand what goes on at a large venue regarding the house mix.  Specifically, the last 2 concerts I went to put out PAINFUL levels of sound.

The first problem is that the highs are so loud and shrill that it could make your ears bleed.  I suppose that the rock musicians of my vintage are probably deaf from spending years in front of Marshall and other stacks night after night, so they need the volume to be able to tell that their amps are on.  But younger performers who have only used smaller amps mixed through in-ear monitors shouldn't need that level of volume – I would think that the in-ear system insulates them from outside noise, so they may not be aware how loud the house mix is.  Fortunately I have been packing earplugs for the last few years when I started running into this intermittently – even at smaller venues.  But obviously earplugs negatively affect my enjoyment of the performer.

The other problem – which is new to me – is that the bass drum is so amplified that it pounds your chest hard enough to crack ribs.  The audible byproduct of this is that it is hard to hear the bass player, especially if he is locked into the bass drum.

Maybe I'm an old fart, but I find this unpleasant to the point that I am considering never going to concerts in large venues anymore.  I have not found anyone who thinks these sound levels add to the experience – only some people who aren't as annoyed by this as me.

Is this really a trend, or have I just had a few bad experiences?  Or is my age just making me too sensitive to this (you can say yes, I know I'm old...).

If this really is a trend, what's the point?

[gtr2]

I rarely go to large shows anymore but when I do I use earplugs.  They may look silly but I'll be the one laughing when I'm old.

[stecykmi]

i agree that many venues have sound quality that leaves something to be desired, but i can honestly say that I love listening to loud music. i enjoy the "thump in the chest" feeling because there are few circumstances where that kind of volume can be achieved.

and while wearing earplugs is _always_ a good idea at a venues playing loud music, some earplugs sound better than others. i suggest looking around for a different set. you can buy music-specific ear plugs, but my suggestion is to get some that don't cut too much sound (they are rated for a specific dB reduction). it's been a while since I've bought a pair, but perhaps start with a pair that offer 10 to 15dB reduction. since both earplugs and the human ear are non-linear over the entire range of hearing, i've found that a pair with lower reduction gives a better EQ for the listener by cutting mostly the high end and upper mids while leaving the bass frequencies relatively unaffected.

assuming a 110dB concert, a 10dB reduction from ear plugs gives a 100dB, which is safe to listen to for 2hrs out of 24hrs (by OSHA). this is cutting it close, but should be just enough for most concerts (if you include breaks between sets, etc.).

[jkokura]

I have been to a few large venue shows in my lifetime, and I'll agree that you rarely get a good listening experience for rock/hard rock/metal shows. Most of the best ones I've seen are in those middle size venues, or small venues. Like when I saw Muse with like 300 people on their first North American Tour in Calgary. Wicked awesome show of their best stuff mostly (Absolution). A good large venue sound I heard was Tool, touring for Lateralus back in 2002. I also thought that Underoath opening for Alexisonfire and the Used (whom I disliked and left for) was pretty good sounding, but that's some pretty hardcore stuff.

But yes. The loudness wars have crept from albums to live music. The theory is that 'louder sounds better.' This is a testable feature using your guitar, or your CD player. Our ears are tuned to enjoy frequencies that, when turned up, are more featured than other frequencies. This ends up with a really enjoyable experience with good listening materials, a loud source, and something to hear them with. However, in live situations, those same frequencies start to enduce pain in the listeners over long periods.

The best situation these days is to find smaller gigs with people who aren't trying to kill their listeners, or to buy CDs/MP3s I think. Or maybe going to outdoor festivals, where the loudness is mitigated by the outdoor situation.

Jacob

[bcalla]

What prompted me to write this was that I went to see John Mayer in NH last weekend.  His opening act was Phillip Phillips (he must be good, all the teenage girls were screaming).  I put the earplugs in as soon as Phillip Phillips started playing, it was really painful.  The bass drum thing was getting to me, too.  Of course I never heard of the guy, so I didn't want to damage my hearing over him.  Fortunately John Mayer's levels were better - both on treble & bass - so I didn't need earplugs.  Oddly, there was one song in the middle of his set where the volume went up above the pain threshold (earplugs in!), then it went back down for the rest of the night (earplugs out!).

I never experienced the bass drum thing until I saw the Rascals "Once Upon a Dream" show a couple of months ago.  The show all around was great, very entertaining, but I thought the sound was second rate.  It was at the Opera House in Boston, so I expected a great house mix.  The band played well, but the Hammond (really the Leslie) was poorly miced and sounded really thin; the guitar was indistinct, lost in the mix.  The vocals were where they should be, though.  But the thumping of the bass drum was a huge distraction, way out of balance with the rest of the instruments.  Maybe it's because all of my friends are old like me, but none of us felt that this was a good effect.

[rullywowr]

I'm glad to chime in here.  My company makes wireless systems and in-ear monitors which are used in large venues and I am tasked with recommending equipment and helping dial the systems in on site a lot of times (especially RF frequencies for wireless mics and in-ear monitors (IEM) ).

The trend is unfortunately going towards extreme levels of sound with much disregard to how the overall mix sounds.  A lot also has to do with the venue and the acoustics.  The best place to listen to a concert would be at Front Of House (FOH) where the FOH engineer is tasked with mixing the sound for the audience.  He is going to make it sound the best he can at that point (behind the mains desk).  A truly good engineer will also know how to tune the rig to the room (using SMAART or other tools), and will also walk to different parts of the venue during soundcheck/show to get an idea how it sounds elsewhere than behind the console.

Basically, all signals (mics, direct box, loops etc) are piped in to the snake and usually split at the monitor engineer's desk at "monitor world".  A feed goes to FOH, and usually another feed to a recording rig.  The monitor engineer is usually posted up either stage left or stage right.  This is where his console and the wireless system receivers, IEM transmitters, all are placed.

Most of the sound systems you see today are line array systems, which look like rectangular boxes which hang from the rafters and are directly in a row.  These are good because of the quick setup, high power, and streamlined look.  Back in the day, Point-Source-Arrays were more common...these look like clusters of speakers with each one radiating out to a different section.  Since it is always hired union labor which sets up the rig for shows, it is way easier to hang (or 'fly') a line array rig.  They are also somewhat more compact when transporting in the 18wheeler on the way to the next show. 

Listening to a line-array system is always hit or miss when you are off axis of the main throw of the speakers...each speaker is aiming a sound beam and there will be some "dead" spots, especially the further out you go from the speakers.  Since bass is very omnidirectional, the bass frequencies will always hit you hard usually no matter where your seat is.  The treble frequencies must be in direct line-of-sight to your position otherwise they will sound muted or just wrong.  Phase cancellation plays a big part in this as well.

When a band is on in-ears, they do have good isolation (thanks to today's modern custom fit ear bud monitors) and they will only really know what the mix sounds like from whatever the monitor engineer is doing.  The monitor engineer's mix is way more important than FOH because if the band can't hear what they are doing properly, then they can't play.  They can't really tell what it sounds like because they are already behind the throw of the FOH main speakers...even if they didn't have ears in.  They have to be behind the mains otherwise feedback would be out of control.  A lot of bands sometimes have some members on IEMs and others on traditional monitor wedges.

Another thing is that some FOH mixers are just not that good at their job.  It's sad but true.  Many are "friends" of the band and they got the job when the band finally made it...it doesn't necessarily mean they know what they are doing.     A lot of them will just crank things up until it sounds good and use poor skills like boosting frequencies instead of cutting them, bad gain structure, putting plug-ins on everything gratuitously, and so forth.

In my experience, artists that have been around for a while and are established are more likely to have a mix that sounds better than artists that are newer and Pop/Rap/Dance based.  Of course, this is a big stereotype but is mostly true.  Bands like Tool, Rolling Stones, Tom Petty are usually going to have a better mix than J-Lo, Kanye West, or Miley Cyrus.  The Pop/Dance/Rap based ones are usually all way too bass heavy and sound like crap.

Most everyone uses digital consoles these days, however you will still see some analog purists such as Rolling Stones and others still using old-school analog consoles.  Why? ...the same reason we like our analog pedals. 

Rant over...Hope this helps   

[gtr2]

Thanks for posting that rullywowr.  I learned some new things today

Josh

[derevaun]

Great info! I would only add this: tinnitus sucks. Avoid it if you can,because it sucks.

I don't remember the shows from my twenties being painful, but I do remember turning thirty and seeing Indigenous not long after, in downtown Syracuse. It was like there was nowhere to hide from the sound. Might have been partially due a wrong mix for a reflective space; or maybe they just felt like mixing them loud that day. But my ears were ringing for a couple days afterward. Some subsequent shows like that one, combined with dumb stuff like pistol target practice in arroyos in Arizona, are probably what have caused a permanent ringing that never goes away. I can't even drink it away, because alcohol temporarily makes it worse. When the world gets quiet, the ringing is there, constant.

I feel like hearing loss isn't just about having had something and then not having it. I feel like the loss is more like losing the big game, because I screwed up. That's what sucks about tinnitus.

[hammerheadmusicman]

In terms of earplugs, spoiling the listening experience. I use custom moulded ACS earplugs they are (buzz word alert..) very transparent, just like having a volume control to turndown the room by X amount of dB.

George
I don't go anywhere without mine. My gigs, any gigs, the cinema, nbecause that has become absurdly loud in recent years too!

They are not particularly cheap. Well worth it though!!

[bcalla]

rullywowr, thanks for the detailed answer.  I was hoping that someone with your knowledge and experience would chime in.  I have had some strange concert experiences over the years.  I once saw John Mellencamp at a corporate event.  It was in a huge hangar-like space and my seat was several hundred feet from the stage.  However, I was right in front of the board so I figured it would at least sound good even if the band looked like tiny little specks in the distance.  Well it sounded like crap.  I looked back at the console and everyone there was wearing headphones & never took them off, so they had no idea what it sounded like in the room.  Or maybe they figured the space was unmanageable & gave up.

derevaun, +1 on tinnitus.  Because of my tinnitus I had my hearing checked last year and it is still in the "normal" range.  But there is a constant tone at a particular pitch which obscures other sounds at that pitch.  Anyone who doesn't yet have it should do whatever they can to prevent it.

And hammerheadmusicman, I will look into some good earplugs.  My quick google search makes me think that ACS are only available in the UK.  I'll try to find them or an equivalent here in the US.

[alanp]

A lot of people at work have the bad habit of not wearing their earplugs, just having them sitting on their ears so from a few meters away you can't tell.

Had to laugh one day, though. I went into the office to check the tally, and the supervisor asks me to turn the music down. (It's fairly noisy in our room, lots of raining water, plus machinery, so the music has to be loud to be heard, somewhat.) I turn around, look at her...

"Put your ear plugs in." (Implication being then your problems will go away.)

The kicker was that the man from Compliance was checking her paperwork on the desk behind us, listening!

[hammerheadmusicman]

ACS are a UK Company, an you have to have them fitted. But, you'll be able to get something similar over there.

I also have moulded in ear monitors for bigger gigs and  tours Etc..