When is a circuit yours?

[icecycle66]

First of all, I'm not going commercial or selling crap or anything like that.  This is just for knowledge.
Second, I'm pretty well versed in general copyright, trademark, and patent laws so no need to explain that for my benefit.  However, I am fairly ignorant in these subjects in regards to circuits.

For the question:

When is a circuit yours?

I'm teaching myself how to use Dip Trace to arrange components and build a circuit.
I started with a Big Muff Pi schematic I found on DIY Stompboxes. So, all the component values and schematic belong to whoever I got the schem from.

At what point during the PCB layout design does the circuit become mine? Do I need to change any component values? Circuit shape? Component arrangement?

When can I say "This circuit is now mine. With it I will create an effects empire like none before seen in this world.  And nobody can sue me for all my stuff with the claim that I took their proprietary information, because I oriented my resistors along a Y axis instead of an X axis."

[jkokura]

What you're talking about is more about copyright, not about circuits. You're talking about a graphic representation of a circuit, the arrangement of the schematic components. As long as it's a schematic you've done yourself, either using software or by hand, it's yours. Even if it looks like someone elses drawing, it's still yours because you did it. Could someone else sue you? Possibly, but the effort likely wouldn't be worth it.

However, what you're intimating is the concept of circuits themselves. If you built a Big Muff, using identical values to the original, you've built a clone. Nothing is yours in that instance. If you changed the values slightly, and arguement could be made that it's yours, but chances are high that not many would really believe you.

But if you changed values drastically, and created/hybrided something somewhat original, then the circuit is yours. It's not so much the end result as it's the method in this instance. Your purpose was to create something, not to copy something. If you've copied it, obviously it's not yours. If you've created something, it's yours.

Chances are high that few boutiquers have truly come up with something very original. Really, original isn't important though - a Timmy is a Dual Op Amp overdrive with soft clipping in the first gain stage feedback loop, which is not terribly original. However, the Timmy uses a very interesting and unique (to the boutique world) method of adjusting the tone of the drive. It's original not because of it's foundational pieces (dual op amp, etc.), but because of it's designer's creative use of innovative techniques to get to the end result.

Jacob

[madbean]

Any schematic drawing or PCB layout artwork you produce is yours via copyright. Circuit "ownership" is a very nebulous term. If you use a circuit portion that is patented without authorization, that could cause potential problems. There are very few instances of circuit patents in the stompbox world most likely...perhaps nearly zero. Maybe of few of the classic designs were patented at one time but have expired. Most of what's out there now does not have patent protection.

So, if you are publishing anything in the public domain such as schematic drawings or PCB artwork, make sure they are your own creation. Don't publish factory schematics and don't copy someone's PCB layout exactly. You can use a factory schematic drawing as a guide, but you should change it around a little bit so it is clear it is your own drawing. Same with a PCB layout: you might use an existing one as a guide, but do not copy it exactly.

And really, you should not do these things anyway, because the real way to learn is to do that type of stuff on your own. It increases your versatility and capabilities exponentially.

Also, you want to steer clear of trademarks, too. Cloning a circuit is a lot different than cloning an actual pedal down to the look, name and overall style. That's another potential area of legal issue if your product intentionally "creates confusion" with the consumer. However, drawing a comparison between someone elses product and your own is a common practice and not at all illegal.

Culturejam might weigh in here---he has a LOT of knowledge in this area.

[midwayfair]

My personal take on it from a simple moral standpoint is this:

1) If you clone a circuit, call it a clone. There's no shame in cloning something you like.

2) If you mod a circuit, even heavily modify it, credit the original creator.

3) If you cobble together a circuit with bits and pieces of other peoples' circuits and then change the values, add or remove components to suit your personal tastes, and end up with something that is just barely recognizable (this is my personal favorite way to "create" stuff), credit the people who created that circuitry. Chances are these days that a ton of circuitry bits worth using is coming from a some innovators who are sharing their stuff for free (Geofx, Mark Hammer, etc.). No one's going to think less of you because you didn't independently create something as cool as the Stupidly Wonderful Tone Control or AMZ's input buffer in your new creation. Give them credit. It's all they get out of sharing. If you happen to create something that is identical to something they created, mention that they also created it and you happened to reinvent it. It's an interesting story and it keeps everyone honest.

4) If you get your hands on a piece of electronics and you haven't seen a circuit that uses it (because let's face it, very little "new" can be done with transistors and such), and you look up the data sheet and come up with a circuit that takes advantage of it, even if the sound you are recreating is inspired by something else, that circuit is truly yours. If you start from the ground up with a concept and proceed to test the heck out of every way of achieving what you want and eventually produce a circuit that uses some extremely common circuitry as a wrapper for the innovation, that's also yours. If you create some little tiny bit of circuitry, like a new tone control that does something really unusual (like the "Nature" pot on the Honey Bee, or the SWTC), that's yours. And you should take credit for it, because people who use it later should know who to credit.

[D-Day]

That was a good post Midway Fair!  My first venture in 'selling a product' is a #3

[culturejam]

Yeah, I've got a thought or two on the subject; a mild set of opinions. 

Circuit "ownership" is a very nebulous term.

It's nearly meaningless, in my opinion. I won't even try to define what it means to "own" a circuit. It's pointless.

The problem is that people will use the terms schematic, layout, pedal, and circuit nearly interchangeably when talking about a commercial product. This is doubly true when the person doing the talking is the one who is selling said product as a means to earn a living. Those guys usually think they OWN everything within in 10 feet of one of their pedals, and that anyone who dares to reference the product in name or in a circuit snippet/clone/derivative/etc is a thieving bastard who is stealing food off the kitchen table. Trust me on this. They forget they are standing on the shoulders of giants; and some of them just reboxed their own clone of something else. And still they think they OWN it. Some of these people even want to control how "their" pedals are resold by customers. They think they still own it even after you bought it.

In addition to being completely ignorant of the law, these irrational people are 100% FULL OF SHIT. (Actually, the worst of the worst know they are wrong legally, but will threaten you anyway as a bully tactic. It's a total bitch move, but it is also highly effective and costs almost nothing.)

However, you should be aware that even if you are 100% compliant with civil law governing intellectual property, you can still be sued. You do not have to be knowledgeable or right (legally speaking) to sue somebody; all you need is money and the stubbornness of a semi-retarded mule.

Two things seem to be a repeating pattern regarding cloning:

1) The bigger players in the effects market (EHX, Boss, Ibanez, DOD, etc) typically don't pay much, if any, attention to circuit cloning. They just don't care if you sell a clone of their pedal, even if you reference their product in the marketing, so long as you don't claim that what you are selling is actually one of their branded products (i.e. - counterfeiting or trademark dilution). If you make obvious that your pedal is made by you, they could care less. Generally speaking, of course.

2) In some instances, small pedal makers (not even companies, really, in many cases) seem to be far more aggressive in defending their imaginary intellectual property. These are the guys that think they own their pedals forever; the circuit inside is theirs alone, developed in total isolation from all other analog electronics, the product of hundreds or thousands of hours of back-breaking "R&D". They have convinced themselves this fiction is the truth. These are the full-of-shit mules that might just sue you for doing something completely legal.

So drawing from these two anecdotal "trends"....if you're going to sell a straight-up 100% dead-on clone, you might want to make sure it's something from a big company. Do a Muff, Rat, Tubescreamer, Fuzz Face. Otherwise, perhaps make some circuit changes that are very obvious and then focus on the differences and pretend you know nothing about the "original". Or as it's otherwise called: "Be a boutique pedal builder". 


On a serious side note, lawsuits are not the only way someone could try to strong-arm you into stopping you from doing whatever it is you are doing. A lot us on these forums are very friendly with each other because of the great sense of community. A lot of us know, and frequently use, each other's real names. We mention details about where we live, what we do for employment, where we went to school, whether or not we are married, and any number of other sets of information that could be used to identify and locate a person. That's about as far as I can go with this line of discussion, based on advice from my own legal counsel. Just reread this paragraph and then think about what somebody with determination, no sense of ethics, and some internet skills might be able to do with information gleaned from any given forum. And then think about whether or not making a cutesy clone pedal of some boutique hype machine is really worth it.

Allegedly.

[gtr2]

all you need is money and the stubbornness of a semi-retarded mule.

Quote worthy and applies to daily life! 

[jtn191]

good points, everyone. I was going to reiterate what Madbean said: circuits can't be copyrighted or trademarked, but patented because they are in the same category as inventions. iirc, this has a far shorter duration of protection because it eventually gives others a chance to compete with the original firm/makers.

I think one reason why nobody tries to patent stompbox circuits is that their purposes are so similar--there's only a small variety of functions they can do: distortion, modulation, delay...How hard would it be to patent an OCD when there was already a Tubescreamer; "It distorts the guitar signal, sounds like an amp, and has tone controls. There are currently no other inventions like it!"

imo, "a circuit is yours" when both you and your peers recognize your ownership. look at paulc and his Tim/Timmy--this happened. But then look at the Big Muff, EHX, Mike Matthews, Robert Myer...do they own the Big Muff? Maybe but it seems as though the circuit is effectively in the public domain.

[bigmufffuzzwizz]

Or as it's otherwise called: "Be a boutique pedal builder". 

Ha you always go there!!

I believe if your gonna clone at least make it your own. Make it look like your own, make it match your playing or the sound you want. It's insane how big the fuzz market is.