Here's a thought - when does a modded "Pedal A" cease to be "Pedal A"?

[Willybomb]

Reading the DS-1 thread, and having modded my DS-1 as my first foray into pedal building 3 years ago or so, at what point does it even become worth modding?

Is a DS-1 after applying the keeley mods, the premierguitar JCM800 component swaps and a switch for the diode snip mod even count as a DS-1 anymore?  Is there a point in modifying a pedal so much that it now sounds like "Pedal B".

Modding is fun, don't get me wrong... but if the end result is so far away from the original, couldn't we just build or buy something that does the job in the first place?  That'd be too easy I suspect, lol.

[mremic01]

Theseus's Ship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

I don't have a solid answer. Ultimately, the thing is the sum of its parts. Whatever labels we attach to it aren't the thing itself.

If you reach a point where you don't feel modding Pedal A to get closer to Pedal B is worthwhile, then it's your call whether or not to buy or build Pedal B instead.

[RobA]

Sounds like a Ph.D. problem in Topology on the morphisms and equivalences between effect pedal families of circuits.

[culturejam]

Theseus's Ship: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ship_of_Theseus

Yep. It's really a philosophical discussion more so than it is a technical distinction.

For *me*, it's quite subjective and varies from circuit to circuit. One main thing I look for is what I would call "change in complexity" from Circuit A to Circuit B.

For example, if you start with a classic Fuzz Face and end up with a pedal with 3 switches, 5 knobs, and at least one major change to the overall topology, I'd call that it's own circuit. So if you added a switchable input buffer, clipping diodes, a 2-band tone stack with gain recovery, and a momentary feedback switch, I'd say it's not a Fuzz Face anymore. It maybe be obvious that the Fuzz Face was your basis or starting point, but it's no longer simple a Fuzz Face.

In my opinion. 

[alanp]

One option is when the name someone picks for their variant is so distantly connected that not many people pick it up. (I'm guilty of this -- "Small Clone" and "Copperfilth" don't seem related much.)

Another option (more cynically) is when someone wants to sell variants, and doesn't want to tip off fellow cloners that it isn't semi-original.

[LaceSensor]

when you can sell it for $300+

[Willybomb]

Yeah, good posts.  I wasn't aware of the Ship of Theseus and it makes for an interesting discussion.

If someone replaces the head and handle on my axe with identical parts due to wear and tear, then I would consider it to still be "my axe", but it's not the "same" axe that it originally was.

I think the example given of the Spitfire eventually being renamed the Spiteful in the wiki is pretty good.  If you read some of Mark's comments on his Tagboard effect site you'll see that there's a million boutique pedals that are basically YATS with a few changes, if any, but I suppose you can't just call it a Tubescreamer...

I don't have any answers either, (and also have both a stock and modded DS-1s) but was wondering how others view it.  I suppose once it sounds *nothing* like it did originally you have a new pedal..