Legal Distribution of "Clones"

[tenwatt]

So when does a circuit become yours?  There are so many tube screamer clones that are just mildly tweaked from the original screamers.  Can you simply change a few cap values and ICs and call a circuit your own design?  At what point do you get sued for ripping someone off?

[gtr2]

http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm

[madbean]

I don't think there are many people out there that can reasonably claim ownership of a design. At least in terms of representing it as wholly original. The fact is that there are only so many ways to put together an overdrive or chorus, etc, and to try to single out any one iteration as a benchmark is probably a little disingenuous. There are exceptions, but they are few.

However, that doesn't mean that it can't be unique. Tweaking values, modifying the "architecture", putting it in a cool package or simply "branding" is the bread and butter of the boutique pedal industry. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that! IMO, that is pretty much where it all happens. Personally, I could care less is a pedal is a tweaked tube screamer or muff or whatever. It might not interest me as a pedal builder, but from a consumers point of view it's about tone, price, resale value and brand loyalty.

Anyway, to answer your question, your design is probably never really "yours" in terms of ingenuity (with some exceptions, of course). That doesn't mean you should not strive to make something your own by putting in the work and getting the desired result. The more effort you put into development, the more you differentiate yourself from the competition. This will help a designer/builder carve out their own unique footprint in this nutty industry.

[tenwatt]

So, if I'm understanding the linked article correctly, you could clone the OCD circuit to the exact detail, stick it in a different box, rename it OPP, and put your own artwork on it and sell it?

I remember hearing the Paul C. and Dano pedals had a battle over the TIMMY and the T.O.D.  How does that differ?

[madbean]

There's nothing stopping you, but why would you want to?

[tenwatt]

There's nothing stopping you, but why would you want to?

I wouldn't...I'm just curious about the industry.  Plus, once I get my skillz refined and someone says "Can you build me a OCD clone?" I want to make sure to stay in good graces with the law. 

[bigmufffuzzwizz]

hmmm interesting. Yea i want to use to for myself and my buddies. But this is all good to know.

[madbean]

There's nothing stopping you, but why would you want to?

I wouldn't...I'm just curious about the industry.  Plus, once I get my skillz refined and someone says "Can you build me a OCD clone?" I want to make sure to stay in good graces with the law. 

Understood. As far as the law is concerned, my understanding is that unless the circuit is patented then there is no legal barrier to actually reproducing it in your own offering. And, obviously, this is what is already being done by both the boutique and large scale manufacturers. What you don't want to do is represent in such a way as to cause confusion to a consumer over what the product is and who it is made by. So, for example, if you copied the look of the OCD (graphics, color, etc) and called it the "ODD", you would be putting yourself in potential jeopardy because there might be reasonable grounds for a trademark infringement. So, if a person insists on making their business that of selling clones, they are better off not violating any trademarked or copyrighted works.

That's the legal part, as I understand it. There's also the ethical part, too. IMO, selling cloned pedals for profit should be discouraged, both on the DIY and boutique scale. I'm not talking about building a one-off for an acquaintance or your buddy, or whatever. But, in an actual commercial endeavor. I find it distasteful, personally, and I don't do it. And, that's pretty much the official terms of use as far as madbeanpedals is concerned. Honestly, if a person is going to go through the trouble of building a commercial pedal business, they will probably last a lot longer if they take the time to do something new, or unique and not just copy another guy. It takes a lot of money and time to build a succesful business on any scale, and you might as well make it worth it!

[tenwatt]

Cool.  Thanx.  This is good info.  I, obviously, don't want to rip people off but in getting my wings I'm think about offering my service of building some clones to friends and aquaintences.  I'd charge them the cost of parts plus a bit for the labor but there wouldn't be a substantial profit.  Am I deceiving myself in thinking that's morally okay.

I really appreciate all of your all's information.

[jkokura]

I'm thinking about offering my service of building some clones to friends and aquaintences.  I'd charge them the cost of parts plus a bit for the labor but there wouldn't be a substantial profit.  Am I deceiving myself in thinking that's morally okay.

No, you're not deceiving yourself, I think it's morally fine. There is little to no protection for circuits themselves. Since you're not going into full production on these pedals, nobody's going to come after you. Just be careful to use either original artwork, or at least manipulate things so that you've put your own spin on things. Don't just label things as a "Ibanoz Tubescreamerish," Call it a a Screaming Tube and create your own 'company.'

As a builder who creates clones which are not only very similar to the original circuits but also a representation of the original pedals like Fuzz Faces and Tonebenders, you also have to consider the current production of a pedal. Fuzz Faces aren't being made like the used to be, they're now made by Dunlop and are generally silicon, so when I make a Germanium Fuzz Face, I label it as one in a red case and am not worried. However, if Dallas Arbiter were still making Ge Fuzz Faces, I'd be more careful. Same with Tonebenders. However, the Timmy by Paul C is a current production pedal which hasn't been messed with, and it's irresponsible to make and sell copies of that pedal.

Also, My last point is that you shouldn't devalue your product. If you're just learning, I understand not wanting to price your work very high, but set yourself a minimum charge. Yes keep track of the parts, but also keep track of the shipping, the extra costs in tools and maintenance, as well as the electricity and power required to run the tools, lights and heat in your workspace! Consider the time you spend in finishing the enclosure, building the circuit, and then wiring it. Consider the time spent checking the circuit and debugging it. All told, a build can cost you 5-10 hours, 50 dollars in parts, and 5-20 dollars in power and tools/maintenance!

I don't build anything for less than 150 dollars unless it's special case. That's just me.

Jacob

[irmcdermott]

Don't just label things as a "Ibanoz Tubescreamerish," Call it a a Screaming Tube and create your own 'company.'

This makes me laugh because I have just spent the entire afternoon in the various markets in Hong Kong, looking at all of the designer "fakes." It was hilarious seeing the misspelled brand names on so many items. i'll update my previous Hong Kong post with my DIY store experience, so i don't highjack this one.

[madbean]

IMO, selling cloned pedals for profit should be discouraged, both on the DIY and boutique scale. I'm not talking about building a one-off for an acquaintance or your buddy, or whatever.

Just to clarify my statement: I meant cloning of current production boutique type pedals by another builder/manufacturer. The whole Lovepedal Amp 11 vs. Timmy vs. the Dano thing being the example. I'm not talking about cloning classic effects. With the Timmy, it is unique enough to tell right away when someone has cloned it by comparing schematics...there was no doubt in my mind just where the Amp 11 came from. IOW, passing that off as your own unique product is what I find so off-putting.

Clear as mud, as usual!

[bigmufffuzzwizz]

Then let the FZ-1's roll!!