I just had a quick look at J201 and 2N5457 prices across the web... holy sh*t balls :o
I'm glad I stocked up when I did.
Another reason for us DIY'ers to start going the SMD route at some point I guess...
There used to be (rather recently) really great deals on 2N5457 JFETS on ebay if you went with 100 or 200-piece lots. Now those seem to be gone. But you can still get good deals on J201 (about 15 cents each) if you buy in bulk.
I've got maybe 300-ish 2N5457 and maybe 100 or so J201s. But these days I don't even design around them because of the obsolescence. I do plan to do my own layout for the BSIAB, but that's about it.
You're right about SMD, though. That technology will be around for the long haul.
Quote from: culturejam on November 14, 2012, 04:30:30 PM
You're right about SMD, though. That technology will be around for the long haul.
they probably said that about thru-hole!
do JFETs even exist in a smd package?
I got a good size of them right after the announcement. But, I got no qualms with SMD. Prices aren't that good, though.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/MMBFJ201/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs8pq%2frIcncIDuloSKJeQKQXmcIPzQ6%252bKo%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/MMBFJ201/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs8pq%2frIcncIDuloSKJeQKQXmcIPzQ6%252bKo%3d)
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 12:44:53 AM
But, I got no qualms with SMD. Prices aren't that good, though.
The price for 1000+ is pretty good. Splitting it between 2-3 people would be ideal.
I recently took my first stab at making an Eagle part - SMD 5457. I'm pretty sure I did it right, but I've got no experience with those parts. I guess I'll make up a board and take a stab at this stuff. Any good SMD libraries for stuff we use a lot?
Quote from: culturejam on November 15, 2012, 01:12:49 AM
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 12:44:53 AM
But, I got no qualms with SMD. Prices aren't that good, though.
The price for 1000+ is pretty good. Splitting it between 2-3 people would be ideal.
I'll go in with someone for sure.
Quote from: jubal81 on November 15, 2012, 01:27:51 AM
I recently took my first stab at making an Eagle part - SMD 5457. I'm pretty sure I did it right, but I've got no experience with those parts. I guess I'll make up a board and take a stab at this stuff. Any good SMD libraries for stuff we use a lot?
You can probably get all the SMD libraries you need from the EagleCAD site. They have a lot of libraries. There should be some in the default library, too.
I think all the FETs and transistors that we would be using are SOT23, and there are a couple of those in the Eagle default libraries.
Quote from: culturejam on November 15, 2012, 02:50:27 AM
I think all the FETs and transistors that we would be using are SOT23, and there are a couple of those in the Eagle default libraries.
That's what I did - took the SOT23 model and made a new 5457 variant in my Madbean library. Checked the pinout again in layout view, so I'm pretty sure I got it. Although I think I'll post a picture in the Eagle thread to get another set of eyes on it.
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 12:44:53 AM
I got a good size of them right after the announcement. But, I got no qualms with SMD. Prices aren't that good, though.
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/MMBFJ201/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs8pq%2frIcncIDuloSKJeQKQXmcIPzQ6%252bKo%3d (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Fairchild-Semiconductor/MMBFJ201/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs8pq%2frIcncIDuloSKJeQKQXmcIPzQ6%252bKo%3d)
As times change, what's the probability of Madbean moving to prestuffed, at least partially, SMD boards?
Could be nice to have all the resistors and caps done and just jam your opamps, pots and whatever else in.
I'd say the chances of that are pretty near zero, ha ha. Shoot, if I were going through that much trouble I might as well just be in the pedal making business, not the DIY business.
Quote from: jubal81 on November 15, 2012, 03:01:09 AM
Quote from: culturejam on November 15, 2012, 02:50:27 AM
I think all the FETs and transistors that we would be using are SOT23, and there are a couple of those in the Eagle default libraries.
That's what I did - took the SOT23 model and made a new 5457 variant in my Madbean library. Checked the pinout again in layout view, so I'm pretty sure I got it. Although I think I'll post a picture in the Eagle thread to get another set of eyes on it.
You're a lot less lazy about it than I am. :-)
I've done a small handful of SMT layouts in Eagle and, so far, I have been able to do everything with the stock libraries. I only focus on the package and the pinouts and that has worked fine. Since SMT is more common these days, I've found most major packages are there in some form or another
Quote from: pickdropper on November 15, 2012, 01:22:49 PM
I've done a small handful of SMT layouts in Eagle and, so far, I have been able to do everything with the stock libraries. I only focus on the package and the pinouts and that has worked fine. Since SMT is more common these days, I've found most major packages are there in some form or another
Yeah, it was an exercise to force me to do some more Eagle learnin'. Probably the smartest thing would be to take the 'equivalent' components, rename them and move them to the library I like. Now just to figure that one out ...
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 01:04:05 PM
I'd say the chances of that are pretty near zero, ha ha. Shoot, if I were going through that much trouble I might as well just be in the pedal making business, not the DIY business.
Haha, I didn't mean personally soldering them. Just seen Dr.Scientists new PCBs though that he has stuffed out of house and was thinking how it'd be nice to be able to cram builds in tiny PCBs, have a machine do all the leg work and finish up just the ICs, transistors, pots etc.
As a starting point, Madbean stock builds require:
(Qty/part)
11 / J201
0 / 2N5452 (But you will need about 24 / 2N5457)
I also have all the other part counts too if anyone wants them. They haven't been updated since the recent new releases though.
This got me thinking. Would there be interest in a basic SMD DIY project from me? Like, maybe a pretty simple effect, with a component kit provided. Just to give those interested a step forward into SMD building. Hmm...
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 10:13:48 PMThis got me thinking. Would there be interest in a basic SMD DIY project from me? Like, maybe a pretty simple effect, with a component kit provided. Just to give those interested a step forward into SMD building. Hmm...
I've been kicking around the same thought lately, actually. I've got a few layouts done.
My only hesitation on the kits is that Mouser will bag and tag each part and it is already included in the price. By the time I would buy a bag and label each resistor (and accounting for my time) getting everything through Mouser might be cheaper.
I can barely see as it is... I'm in no hurry to go SMD for this reason alone.
I'd jump on some SMD projects just to give them a shot. You all know my love for Mouser BOMs. Instead of making your own kits, just supply a BOM number and people can order all the stuff on their own with one click.
Yep, I have Mouser BOMs for all of my layouts.
Quote from: pickdropper on November 15, 2012, 11:58:29 PM
Yep, I have Mouser BOMs for all of my layouts.
Schaaawing!
I've seen a few in the build reports, but what all do you have ready to go?
I'm getting ready to jump aboard the SMT train. Some simple projects would be great, or even difficult projects squeezed into smaller boxes. Especially if the BOMs were ready to go so I could purchase parts in one click, or use the mouser info to find comparable parts from other suppliers. I would buy some boards for sure.
Quote from: jubal81 on November 16, 2012, 12:48:16 AM
Quote from: pickdropper on November 15, 2012, 11:58:29 PM
Yep, I have Mouser BOMs for all of my layouts.
Schaaawing!
I've seen a few in the build reports, but what all do you have ready to go?
So far I've built:
Sea Urchin/Deep Blue Delay - That one is good to go
Shoot the Moon/Little Angel - Would verify with Rick and Forrest that they were cool with it. Not really ideal for a first run at SMT, but some folks may want to try it. I may also break off the STM into a separate board, which would make it smaller and a good first SMT project.
Screwdriver - Protos on the way. The transistors are through-hole. Everything else is SMT. Probably an idea first foray as it is fairly low parts count and the SMT is all passive.
Timmy - Boards on the way. I won't make these generally available because I don't want the hassle, but I'll probably have a few extra.
All of these PCBs will fit in a 1590A. The Screwdriver is different from the rest in that it actually will take board mounted pots, if one doesn't want to jam it in a small enclosure (as there are 5 pots). As I recently verified, You CAN fit 5 pots (or more) in a 1590A if you drill carefully.
I am going to do some more, but they will come in time. I didn't do these layouts with the purpose of going into the PCB selling business, but I've seen a bit of momentum with SMT, so I've started to think about doing a small batch of some of them, if folks are interested, that is.
Very nice selection. Do you have a default size you like to work with, 0603/0805? I've started a few layouts with 0805s because they're a little bigger.
Quote from: jubal81 on November 16, 2012, 02:25:12 AM
Very nice selection. Do you have a default size you like to work with, 0603/0805? I've started a few layouts with 0805s because they're a little bigger.
Yes, I prefer 0603 resistors and 0805 caps. I do use larger caps when necessary to get larger values. These days, I usually prefer to use ceramic caps over larger (specifically taller) tantalum caps. For example, I favor 47uF 1206 caps.
Quote from: pickdropper on November 16, 2012, 01:42:13 AM
Shoot the Moon/Little Angel - Would verify with Rick and Forrest that they were cool with it.
It's cool with me.
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 10:13:48 PM
This got me thinking. Would there be interest in a basic SMD DIY project from me? Like, maybe a pretty simple effect, with a component kit provided. Just to give those interested a step forward into SMD building. Hmm...
Yes. At least as a reflex to fight my resistance to change. To be honest, modulations are the best bet for me as i won't see the point of a smd based dirt pedal for instance except maybe to beat the fuzz face size world record or for more usage as a guitar onboard effect (bass preamp, or guitar boost (an enhanced sho would be a good candidate as far as i'm concerned)
Quote from: culturejam on November 16, 2012, 04:50:31 AM
Quote from: pickdropper on November 16, 2012, 01:42:13 AM
Shoot the Moon/Little Angel - Would verify with Rick and Forrest that they were cool with it.
It's cool with me.
Cool Forrest. Thanks.
Want me to send you a board?
Quote from: djaaz on November 16, 2012, 08:22:39 AM
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 10:13:48 PM
This got me thinking. Would there be interest in a basic SMD DIY project from me? Like, maybe a pretty simple effect, with a component kit provided. Just to give those interested a step forward into SMD building. Hmm...
Yes. At least as a reflex to fight my resistance to change. To be honest, modulations are the best bet for me as i won't see the point of a smd based dirt pedal for instance except maybe to beat the fuzz face size world record or for more usage as a guitar onboard effect (bass preamp, or guitar boost (an enhanced sho would be a good candidate as far as i'm concerned)
SMT for shrinking modulation circuits certainly makes a ton of sense. But I think that using it to shrink down anything to a 1590A can be cool. As you mentioned, a fuzz face can be tiny already, so that isn't the biggest deal.
The downside of doing only modulations is that some of those circuits can be a bit parts heavy and may not be the ideal starting point for SMT; troubleshooting can be a bit trickier, especially since caps are generally not marked. I try and get the marked resistors as they are a bit nicer to deal with.
I would be willing to buy a pre-arranged SMD kit or two.
I don't think anyone else has jumped to bagged SMD kits, this would be the first place to start that.
Quote from: djaaz on November 16, 2012, 08:22:39 AMi won't see the point of a smd based dirt pedal
Two words:
Big. Muff. With .1% (not a typo) tolerances possible. Want great noise performance?
My little bit of sadness is that I'm not sure how I'll build things on perfboard once it's all SMD.
Quote from: midwayfair on November 16, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: djaaz on November 16, 2012, 08:22:39 AMi won't see the point of a smd based dirt pedal
Two words:
Big. Muff. With .1% (not a typo) tolerances possible. Want great noise performance?
My little bit of sadness is that I'm not sure how I'll build things on perfboard once it's all SMD.
.1% resistors can be surprisingly inexpensive. Are you sure that the noise performance will be lower just because the tolerance is tighter? I think what could certainly bring down the noise would be the shorter traces and perhaps switching from thick to thin film resistors (but at a very high cost).
I recently did a 1590a friendly muff layout, but it is all through-hole. I am sure I could adapt it for SMT, though.
Quote from: pickdropper on November 16, 2012, 04:28:08 PMAre you sure that the noise performance will be lower just because the tolerance is tighter?
No, it's the composition (they're metal film, but more compact, and with smaller leads), size, and board layouts. Yeah, the way I wrote my previous post was a little incomplete!
Quote from: midwayfair on November 16, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
My little bit of sadness is that I'm not sure how I'll build things on perfboard once it's all SMD.
1206 parts fit nicely on vero (track-side, obviously). So you could do some hybrid layouts that way.
Quote from: midwayfair on November 16, 2012, 04:38:25 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on November 16, 2012, 04:28:08 PMAre you sure that the noise performance will be lower just because the tolerance is tighter?
No, it's the composition (they're metal film, but more compact, and with smaller leads), size, and board layouts. Yeah, the way I wrote my previous post was a little incomplete!
Dig it. That fits more with my understanding as well.
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 10:13:48 PM
This got me thinking. Would there be interest in a basic SMD DIY project from me? Like, maybe a pretty simple effect, with a component kit provided. Just to give those interested a step forward into SMD building. Hmm...
Brian, if you do this, would you also sell the boards alone? I don't need a kit, but I'd likely be interested in boards if you offered them.
Quote from: pickdropper on November 16, 2012, 07:36:34 PM
Quote from: madbean on November 15, 2012, 10:13:48 PM
This got me thinking. Would there be interest in a basic SMD DIY project from me? Like, maybe a pretty simple effect, with a component kit provided. Just to give those interested a step forward into SMD building. Hmm...
Brian, if you do this, would you also sell the boards alone? I don't need a kit, but I'd likely be interested in boards if you offered them.
I would need a kit. At least one that provides resistors and capacitors.
Jon, you could still probably use the perf board that has the solder rings on the back, kinda like Rat Shack sells (maybe cheaper somewhere else though).
I used to work at IBM when they first got into SMD (at that time it was called SMT) and most of the devices can be soldered with a fine tipped iron, however, there were some components that required a microscope to solder, still using a fine tipped iron. The scope was used mainly to see the small leads on some of the flat-pack and j-leg packages and to look for solder bridges.
I don't know how to post a downloadable file here, so I will point you in the right direction (so to speak). If you are serious about getting into SMD projects, Google the SMD Code Book and look through it. There is tons of info there on how to identify devices and it also has info on package outlines and such. There are different versions, but you might want to download each year of the code book. 2012 is the latest edition and the best part is that they are free to download!
Hope this helps in some way.
Quote from: pickdropper on November 16, 2012, 04:28:08 PM
Quote from: midwayfair on November 16, 2012, 02:29:00 PM
Quote from: djaaz on November 16, 2012, 08:22:39 AMi won't see the point of a smd based dirt pedal
Two words:
Big. Muff. With .1% (not a typo) tolerances possible. Want great noise performance?
My little bit of sadness is that I'm not sure how I'll build things on perfboard once it's all SMD.
.1% resistors can be surprisingly inexpensive. Are you sure that the noise performance will be lower just because the tolerance is tighter? I think what could certainly bring down the noise would be the shorter traces and perhaps switching from thick to thin film resistors (but at a very high cost).
I recently did a 1590a friendly muff layout, but it is all through-hole. I am sure I could adapt it for SMT, though.
Totally agree on the lower noise due to shorter traces and thin film resistors. I've been thinking about doing some of the larger form factor distortions in smd, how cool would it be to get one of those circuits in a 1590a? Just have to learn a layout program... ;-) simple, nothin but time to spare over here. So I would totally buy a board if offered!
Anyway, I spent about 12 years doing smd assembly and process support for both mil spec mfg and also contract mfg for brands like HP, compaq, Lucent, etc., though it was a while ago. SMD can be tricky at first but in many ways it can be easier than thru hole, even by hand. (I've actually done 0201s by hand, but 0805 or even 1206 is probably a good starting point.) So if there's any interest in learning some tricks, let me know.
Also, a kit from passives could be pretty easy to do since there's little risk of esd damage. You could print out the parts list and tape the parts adjacent, or even over the layout, almost paint by numbers at that point. Semiconductors you'd want to bag. Would also suggest including a few extra of everything that's smaller than an ic, especially since they're pretty cheap in bulk.
I dont post much and only recently got back into stomp boxes, but Ive been visiting often. Continually impressed with all the great work here, great community too!
Quote from: wgc on November 17, 2012, 06:35:42 AM
So if there's any interest in learning some tricks, let me know.
Consider yourself notified of said interest. :)
Quote from: culturejam on November 17, 2012, 04:52:36 PM
Quote from: wgc on November 17, 2012, 06:35:42 AM
So if there's any interest in learning some tricks, let me know.
Consider yourself notified of said interest. :)
Yeah, sounds like you have some great experience with those stuff.
As far as hand-soldering 0201s, I have to admit that I consider that to be a pain. I've done it in a pinch, but definitely not my preferred size. Hell, some board houses still don't have the pick and place machines to handle those.
;-) I'll start a new thread somtime in the next day or two. I'm sure there's a few things I can offer that should make smd things less challenging with a little practice.
Looking forward to it, Billy.
woo!! i like what's going on here! Next up - SMD projects!! I'd totally buy in!