Anyone up for cloning this most rare of rare beasts?
This is my 2nd one, wont ever be selling this one, unless Im REALLY in dire need.
(http://cdn.uploads-preloved.com/uploads/userphotos/12/0524/5298843-320m.jpg)
(http://cdn.uploads-preloved.com/uploads/userphotos/12/0524/5298842-320m.jpg)
You are so lucky ;)
What ICs is it based around?
With the CV input, I have to wonder if it's based on something Moog or Oberheim...
ITs not based on any other design far as I can tell, I thought Lovetone were original.
Its using a 1024 stage BBD (likely Panasonic MN3007 / 3207) and corresponding clock MN3101 proably. The IC are sanded top.
Wow, cloning this would be an incredible public service for the DIY community! I can't even imagine what all sounds you could get from this thing. Congrats!
This is one I would be interested in cloning.
Quote from: madbean on July 02, 2012, 02:44:02 PM
This is one I would be interested in cloning.
If I take pics, will you help with the schematic please? Im not good at that side of things.
I also have the doppelganger.
:)
Quote from: madbean on July 02, 2012, 02:44:02 PM
This is one I would be interested in cloning.
i like this idea
Quote from: LaceSensor on July 02, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
Quote from: madbean on July 02, 2012, 02:44:02 PM
This is one I would be interested in cloning.
If I take pics, will you help with the schematic please? Im not good at that side of things.
I also have the doppelganger.
:)
To start, we would need one clear, top down shot of the top and bottom. It should be done with a sufficient aperture so that there is minimal distortion on the edges. IOW, the two images come out as rectangles so they can be laid on top of each other. If you can start with that, the PCB itself can be recreated in Photoshop, as well as traces to a schematic.
Also, before doing any major disassemble, make sure to take some pics of how it is situated in the enclosure. You want to get a sense of whether or not the whole rig will come out as one piece or not first, or if any wires must be desoldered. If so, you need to have good photo reference of exactly how things are connected together before proceeding. This will ensure you can get it back together!
I already did this with the Doppelganger, but I made a scanning of the PCB.
I was able to make a etch of the PCB that way. However, my build had bugs that I wasnt able to work out yet.
With regards taking these apart, you just need to desolder the Power supply. Everything else comes out as one (once you unscrewed everything of course).
will get time later in the week to do this :)
Please make this happen! I've been building every flanger I can find. just got some more sad 1024's as well. this would kick ass
Sorry for delays maybe later tonite I get chance! Or definitely next week. Been I'll in bed!
Ooooo this looks cool.
Finally got out of bed today and finished this up with some graphics :)
Lovetone RingStinger clone.
Hopefully one day we will be able to make Lovetone ?Flanger clones :)
(http://i1178.photobucket.com/albums/x374/LaceSensor1/Ringstinger%202/P1030167.jpg)
Hey LaceSensor, any movement on the gut shots yet?
Quote from: LaceSensor on July 02, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
I also have the doppelganger.
:)
I've been wanting one of these, and I saw your thread about your clone. Ever work out the bugs?
Quote from: irmcdermott on July 23, 2012, 09:29:31 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on July 02, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
I also have the doppelganger.
:)
I've been wanting one of these, and I saw your thread about your clone. Ever work out the bugs?
Not yet. Everything takes time and patience.
To the guy above, ill hopefully get the stuff sorted on the flanger this week.
I must admit im a bit scared to take it apart given how much it cost me.
There are already lots of gutshots, my aim is to scan the PCB to allow a trace to be done, schematic produced.
Quote from: irmcdermott on July 23, 2012, 09:29:31 PM
Quote from: LaceSensor on July 02, 2012, 02:47:22 PM
I also have the doppelganger.
:)
I've been wanting one of these, and I saw your thread about your clone. Ever work out the bugs?
Not yet. Everything takes time and patience. I dont have massive patience for troubleshooting.
I hope to revisit it sometime, there are some unidentified parts in my original but the main issue is the voltages are off on one of the ICs. I reckon its just a solder joint error somewhere.... ::)
To the guy above, ill hopefully get the stuff sorted on the flanger this week.
I must admit im a bit scared to take it apart given how much it cost me.
There are already lots of gutshots, my aim is to scan the PCB to allow a trace to be done, schematic produced.
in other news... ;D
(https://p.twimg.com/AykPRQ1CEAEJGTh.jpg)
I'd be interested in getting the LoveTone Flanger traced out. Don't have one though. Need some really good pictures of it or someone could send me a broken one to trace out. Here is a trace of the main board and the daughter board done by shed FX over on diy Stomp boxes (intentionally left spaces). They look to be very accurate.
I am attempting to draw a schematic of the daughter board. From scanning through the datasheets for the MNxxx series BBD devices, I know that there is an MN3102 and an MN3207 on the daughter board (this took a while to figure out). Anyway, Anyone willing to attempt this? Here are some pictures.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img5/1185/flangemainboard.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/5/flangemainboard.jpg/)
Main board looking at solder side.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img801/7655/flangedaughterboard.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/flangedaughterboard.jpg/)
Daughter board looking at solder side.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img217/3590/daughterboard.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/217/daughterboard.jpg/)
Daughter board component side view.
OK, I have drawn a schematic of the LoveTone Flange daughter board and believe it to be correct. This was drawn from pictures on the internet as I do not have one available to me. The schematic is not verified and has several notes on the drawing. Here it is for anyone who is interested.
(http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3690/daughterboardschematic.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/841/daughterboardschematic.png/)
Here is a link to a better picture:
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3690/daughterboardschematic.png
(http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/1848/daughterboardnumbered.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/17/daughterboardnumbered.png/)
Parts numbered on daughter board (my numbering based on above schematic).
The photos I have seen show a red, shielded (outer shield is grey) cable, white, brown, blue, black and red wires going to the daughter board. The blue wire is not visible in the top view of the board but is shown in bottom views that I have come across. So the brown, red and blue wires are best guesses as to where they gconnect as they are obscured in the photos I used. The diode values are a guess also.
I know the resistor values are correct. The IC's were compared to datasheets of the MN3102 and MN3207 and were connected just like most of the circuits in those datasheets (although the MN3007 could also be a possibility). I was given a list of cap values by buck007 at diy stomp boxes but was not given any reference as to locations on the board. I guessed as to which value went where. just read the notes. I believe LaceSensor has (or had) a LoveTone Flange and may be able to verify some of my findings.
This is a draft and anyone looking at the schematic should read the notes that are listed on it. You could also breadboard it and see what it does, maybe give some feedback. ;D
I would like to get this off the ground if anyone is interested. Still need some good photos of the main board and parts.
Edit: Was given correct cap values and locations. Updated schematic and added last photo of daughter board. Still needs to be verified though.
2nd Edit: R10 on schematic has been corrected and daughter board picture has been updated. Uploaded both on 11/28/2012.
Enjoy!
I can help just gimme some time to get on it, really busy these days
Appreciate your work so far..
Hi everyone !
I've just built a doppelganger thanks to Lacesensor, and I'd be glad to help on the Flange With No Name !
Well I don't have one + I'm a noob + I'm french ;D, so I doubt I could help you efficiently but still you can count on me, at least to encourage you ::)
Quote from: nvnc7 on November 21, 2012, 08:56:00 AM
Hi everyone !
I've just built a doppelganger thanks to Lacesensor, and I'd be glad to help on the Flange With No Name !
Well I don't have one + I'm a noob + I'm french ;D, so I doubt I could help you efficiently but still you can count on me, at least to encourage you ::)
Would you mind putting up some pictures and stuff in my thread, or making a new build thread in the reports section?
That would be awesome if you could help out. Anything, at this point, would be better than nothing at all. I am trying to do a schem of the main board, however, it won't have values as I can't make out the values in the photos I've seen online. Hopefully, the resistors and caps will be in place and then maybe we can get some values and verification as we go. The wiring is another story as it is not clear where wires go on the board. I have the daughter board drawn out above, but it needs to be verified.
I am also making a double sided Doppelganger circuit board. I mostly have it done, but not too sure about the size as Eagle Lite only lets me create an approximately 3 inch X 4 inch PCB. I'll post it after Thanksgiving if anyone is interested. Was planing on sending it to Osh Park (the PCB files) so i could verify it.
Quote from: electricstorm on November 22, 2012, 05:13:37 AM
That would be awesome if you could help out. Anything, at this point, would be better than nothing at all. I am trying to do a schem of the main board, however, it won't have values as I can't make out the values in the photos I've seen online. Hopefully, the resistors and caps will be in place and then maybe we can get some values and verification as we go. The wiring is another story as it is not clear where wires go on the board. I have the daughter board drawn out above, but it needs to be verified.
I am also making a double sided Doppelganger circuit board. I mostly have it done, but not too sure about the size as Eagle Lite only lets me create an approximately 3 inch X 4 inch PCB. I'll post it after Thanksgiving if anyone is interested. Was planing on sending it to Osh Park (the PCB files) so i could verify it.
I have a scan of the main PCB for the flanger as well as pictures of the gut shots.
Get dropbox and I will add you to my shared folder for the photos.
Also can I get in on the Oshpark thing please as I would like to have a smaller build.
thanks
Hey LaceSensor, I downloaded the Dropbox thing you mentioned. Now I need to learn to use it.
I can post a picture of the board in the next day or two (an Eagle layout). It is doublesided and based on a schem I made using your info, a picture or two of the DoppelGanger and a schematic Bean posted elswhere on the forum. Turns out the schem he posd was pretty accurate. The LFO sections had to be swapped according to a trace of the DoppelGanger board. I have also been looking at adding the pedal 1 and pedal 2 jacks to the Meatsphere that Taylor has a PCB of.
I am still learning to use Eagle but will try to post an actual size board layout soon as I can figure out how to do that. Anyway, I'll get it done soon as I can.
later!
Thanks ! I have dropbox too. I'll try to help as much as I can ;)
Photos of the Doppelganger are coming soon !
thanks
Quote from: electricstorm on November 23, 2012, 03:25:53 AM
Hey LaceSensor, I downloaded the Dropbox thing you mentioned. Now I need to learn to use it.
I can post a picture of the board in the next day or two (an Eagle layout). It is doublesided and based on a schem I made using your info, a picture or two of the DoppelGanger and a schematic Bean posted elswhere on the forum. Turns out the schem he posd was pretty accurate. The LFO sections had to be swapped according to a trace of the DoppelGanger board. I have also been looking at adding the pedal 1 and pedal 2 jacks to the Meatsphere that Taylor has a PCB of.
I am still learning to use Eagle but will try to post an actual size board layout soon as I can figure out how to do that. Anyway, I'll get it done soon as I can.
later!
I'd be interested in one of those PCB's if you decide to offer them!
I'm not as good as Brian, Josh, or some other Eagle experts here, but here is my doublesided Doppelganger board. As I said earlier, I'm still learning how to use Eagle. I have not finished the wiring details yet, in case anyone is wondering what all the SW connections are for. These will connect to the foot switches and toggle switches.
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3193/doppelgangerbdimage.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/doppelgangerbdimage.png/)
The board is limited in size as I have the Eagle lite version and it limits you to the size board you can do. Anyway, I hope to finish checking some things and send this to Osh Park soon so I can verify it.
Rotary switches, LED's (except LDR LED's), and Pots will mount to the back side of the board. I used 9mm pots for this layout. A little nervous about the spacing for knobs!
Let me know what you think.
Looks hot. Will it fit in a 1790ns?
Would you consider me as a helper to verify it?
Yep, that would fit in a 1790, but if be worried about the rotaries being too close to the stomps. That's a typical problem with those pedals though.
Jacob
I know it's not the True Jedi Way, but you could take the rotaries out and just put a couple of spdt switches in.
Sorry to reply so late, had a funeral to attend over the weekend.
LaceSensor, yes, I would be honored to have your assistance verifying the board. I'll let you know when I send it to Osh Park, we'll work something out on where to go from there. Also, let me know how to access your Lovetone Flange folder to see your photos of the board when you get a chance.
Jacob, what suggestions would you make, other than maybe SMD parts, to make the board a bit smaller? I think I may have made a mistake with the pots as I wanted to make them board mounted. I later found out that the 9mm pots have extra pins for mounting to the board (like the ones used on the mini board that were sold elsewhere on the forum by another member) if you get the right-angled PCB mounted pots.
Alanp, I thought about that, and still might try it later, but wanted to stay somewhat true to the original look with the exception of the slide switches near the top of the pedal.
Quote from: electricstorm on November 25, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
Jacob, what suggestions would you make, other than maybe SMD parts, to make the board a bit smaller? I think I may have made a mistake with the pots as I wanted to make them board mounted. I later found out that the 9mm pots have extra pins for mounting to the board (like the ones used on the mini board that were sold elsewhere on the forum by another member) if you get the right-angled PCB mounted pots.
Well, you have got quite a bit of vertical space going on there. I'm fairly certain you could rearrange things so the board is up to 1/2" shorter. Also, you make use of a lot of vias, so I would play around with arranging traces to get rid of as many of those as you can, not that they're bad, just that I see several you don't need.
Jacob
Quote from: electricstorm on November 25, 2012, 02:56:32 PM
Sorry to reply so late, had a funeral to attend over the weekend.
LaceSensor, yes, I would be honored to have your assistance verifying the board. I'll let you know when I send it to Osh Park, we'll work something out on where to go from there. Also, let me know how to access your Lovetone Flange folder to see your photos of the board when you get a chance.
Jacob, what suggestions would you make, other than maybe SMD parts, to make the board a bit smaller? I think I may have made a mistake with the pots as I wanted to make them board mounted. I later found out that the 9mm pots have extra pins for mounting to the board (like the ones used on the mini board that were sold elsewhere on the forum by another member) if you get the right-angled PCB mounted pots.
Alanp, I thought about that, and still might try it later, but wanted to stay somewhat true to the original look with the exception of the slide switches near the top of the pedal.
PM me your dropbox email and ill invite you to share.
cheers
LaceSensor - PM sent.
Jacob, The three via's in the upper left are there because I had isolated the upper polygon and had to route a connection for the air wires (I am guessing these were among the ones you were referring to). I know it could be better, but practice makes perfect as they say. I'll review the Eagle tutorials so I can save the layout I have now and not loose it when I try to do another layout. I would have preferred to have board mounted pots, but may have to just abandon that idea and just make connections off board. Since it is semi-complex, I'll have to think about how to lay it out better. Maybe I should use 1/8 watt resistors instead. Might also think about using toggles instead of rotaries like alanp suggested. Thanks for responding!
Jim
I think if people are putting effort into making smaller doublesided boards then ditching the rotaries is totally worthwhile, and actually makes its more useable as Jakob mentioned the rotaries will just get kicked otherwise. Its bad enough on the real thing or indeed my "full size" clone
It may take me a little time, but I'll see what I can come up with then using toggles instead. I want to keep the current layout just in case. Thanks for the input everyone!
Ian (LaceSensor), when you get time, would you verify the transistors for the Lovetone Flange. This is what I think the locations are:
Q2, Q14 - BC307B
Q1, Q6, Q11, Q13 - J113
Q3, Q4, Q5, Q7, Q8, Q9,
Q10, Q12, Q15, Q16, Q17 - BC549C
Also, are there any other identifying marks on the transformer?
I have a partial parts layout, but needs more work.
Hi
Id have to take it apart again which is a pain
The transformer is from Oxford Electrical Products, model 1200 if memory serves
details here
http://uk.farnell.com/oep-oxford-electrical-products/oep1200/transformer-isolation-600-600-ohm/dp/1172348
There is an error on the Lovetone Flanger daughter board schematic. R10 should be 330R, not 300R. Soon as I have some free time I'll update the schematic. Sorry about the error. I have since discovered that the Brown, Red, and Blue wires are correctly located on the board. Pretty good guess, huh!
Edit: Daughterboard schematic has been corredcted and reposted.
It has now been confirmed that the main board IC is a TL074 on the Lovetone Flanger.
Need confirmation on the following if someone wants to volunteer!
There are 17 transistors on the main board. Lacesensor has been kind enough to give me the following info (thanks Ian!!):
11 - BC549C
2 - BC307B
4 - J113
Version 1:
BC549C - Q3, Q4, Q5, Q7, Q8, Q9, Q10, Q12, Q15, Q16, Q17
BC307B - Q2, Q14
J113 - Q1, Q6, Q11, Q13
Version 2:
BC549 - Q1, Q2, Q4, Q6, Q8, Q9, Q11, Q12, Q13, Q16, Q17
BC307B - Q14, Q???
J113 - Q3, Q5, Q7, Q10, Q15 ??? One of these is not correct, don't know which one.
He wasn't able to give me the locations. These locations were taken from DIYstompboxes ("A Gift" thread) for version 1.
Version 2 is a more educated guess based off the "A Gift" thread (the OP used two numbering schemes in the layout). I went with the layout that matches the actual layout of the transistors based off a clear shot of the board I have seen.
The only transistor I feel confident about is Q14 as the board is clearly marked "BC307B". The rest is a guess. Anyone care to clarify this info???
I am also making a hand drawn overhead transparency of the wires and wire colors that connect to the mail board. I will post more when I have it. If I get permission from the photo owner, I'll post clearer pix of the boards.
Thanks for any help you can give!
Jim
Corrected and updated daughter board schematic and picture for lovetone Flanger!
I am also including a link to some files and pictures of the board. Lacesensor provided them to me and gave permission to share them (thanks Ian!!). Another member from Freestompboxes provided some photos as well (Thanks playon!!). Hopefully this will be easier for sharing files. Here is the link:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3v4twi2sbs0l5p7/1Ep9NbRE2T
Now, for those serious about getting this traced out, I welcome your help! I'll post more to the file when i get more to share.
Edit: The manual has been added to the link above. I want to thank playon for sending it to me.
Jim
I have completed a wiring diagram of the Lovetone flanger based on various photos (available in my Dropbox folder). It is a bit
of a mess with all the wires but the wire colors should be easy to follow. I should have done it differently, but will re-draw it
after some verification.
Here's the drawing:
(http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5646/wireconnections3.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/72/wireconnections3.png/)
Better picture here:
http://img72.imageshack.us/img72/5646/wireconnections3.png
I have about 1/3 of the main board schematics drawn. I will post it when it is finished for verification. Where it says "Shielded Cable" you will see some grey
colored wires in the diagram that appear to connect to the red wires. These grey colored wires are the shielding wires inside the cable and are NOT connected
to the red wires as they are shown. This is merely to indicate the shielded part of the wire going to ground or where ever it connects to (such as at the Time switch through the resistor). Any feedback is appreciated!
Jim
For those interested, I have completed the main board schematics for the Lovetone Flanger. All files related to the project can be viewed here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3v4twi2sbs0l5p7/1Ep9NbRE2T (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/3v4twi2sbs0l5p7/1Ep9NbRE2T)
As files are corrected, older files are deleted. I didn't have the correct transformer symbol in Eagle but the part number is correct. I'll learn how to make custom parts later and will fix this at a later date. Just read all the notes on the schematics (both the daughter board and main board).
I'll make a seperate thread at a later date on this project.
I would like to thank Haberdasher for making a set of boards for this project for me to experiment with. He put in a lot of hard work and back and forth communication on it and thought he should be given proper credit for his efforts.
Got the boards yesterday! Haberdasher, you do beautiful work man!!! Love it.
Lovetone Flanger Boards
(http://imageshack.us/a/img819/7480/1004460m.jpg)
Lovetone Doppelganger Boards
(http://imageshack.us/a/img713/7193/1004459g.jpg)
Now, time to experiment with the Lovetone flanger boards!
Thanks again for the boards!!!!! ;D
Jim
Those are some epic boards... Good luck on the builds man!
Echo that sentiment, good luck. Cant wait for the completed flanger project.
Can't wait to see what you think about he sound once done.
Quote from: TNblueshawk on December 20, 2012, 03:15:09 PM
Can't wait to see what you think about he sound once done.
The Dopp will sound great.
The Flanger, who knows ;)
I'vs started ordering parts for both. Can't wait to start on them. As Ian said though, not sure how the flanger will sound.
OK, I have made some progress on the Lovetone Flanger. I've confirmed that the LFO is working. The Rate, Depth and Manual controls appear to be functioning as they should (don't have an Oscope, need to get one soon) by observing the LED's. I have a smooth transition from off to on (Traingle Wave) and a definate on/off (Square Wave) on the green led (LED6, "Time" on the schematic).
The Manual Control controls the H.B. Green LED on the daughter board (MN3102 and MN3207 connected to this board from "R" on the main board or collector of Q17). Fully CCW, the led is fully on. Fully CW, the LED is off. Settings in between adjust the brightness (this is with the Rate and Depth controls fully CCW or off). Now, when you add the Depth and Rate, interesting things start to happen. With Manual set fully CCW, the daughter board LED barely flickers. but the main board green LED flashes as it should. When the Manual control is fully CW, the daughter board LED and the main board LED (LED 6, green) alternately flash at an intensity and rate determined by the Depth and Rate controls. It should be noted that the main board LED is not as bright when the daughter board LED and main board LED are working together.
The only curious thing is that LED 2 (one of the LED/LDR combos) is dimly lit and is constantly on. No flashing or on/off is observed regardless of where the Rate, Depth, and Manual controls are set. However, I don't have the the rest of the associated circuitry set up either so this may or may not be the reason for this behaviour.
As far as the LFO section is concerned, it seems to be working. The only thing is connections "M", and "N" (main board schematic) are not yet connected. This includes the following, which have not been confirmed:
R55
C25
R56
R57
D2
Q13
R58
D2 I don't have a value for yet. I assmume it is a 1N4148, but upon reading the user manual, I'm beginning to think this might be a zener. Here's what the manual says about the Trig/Gate:
This is a dual-function socket which allows stop/start and continous synchronization of the LFO.
Gate: Connect a mono jack all the way in. A POSITIVE dc voltage of between 0.7v and 15v will "freeze" the LFO as long as it is applied.
Trig: Connect a mono jack in half-way. NEGATIVE going edges of a gate signal (square wave) will sync the LFO (and will only interrupt its motion while the transition is made). An audio signal of sufficient level (I.E line level) can also be used to sync the LFO (particularly in the bass region). Results, however, may be somewhat erratic compared to the GATE method and depends largely on the nature of the audio signal.
There are other details associated with both the TRIG and GATE, but what I listed above is what made me think it might be a zener (to clamp the max 15v).
So, there you have it for now. I'll continue to work on this project and keep you updated. Any thoughts on the progress so far or the possibility of D2 being a zener, let me know.
Cheers,
Jim
Still waiting on the LDR's, but here are pictures of the populated boards haberdasher made for me:
(http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/5540/1004463.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/197/1004463.jpg/)
D2 (to the left of the top large capacitor) and the hand soldered components in the lower right hand corner (main board) have not yet been added to the board. Ignore the yellow wire in the picture. I added this to connect two different stages when I was checking out the LFO and tracing some signals. A switch will eventually connect these sections in the completed unit.
SLOWLY making progress....
Jim
:o :o :o :o :o
You are a true hero!! Someday, I'll build this, just for the sake of building it!
Paul
Quote from: DutchMF on January 10, 2013, 09:08:32 PM
You are a true hero!! Someday, I'll build this, just for the sake of building it!
Paul
He sure as hell gets the tenacity award that is for sure! Would love to build it myself one day.
Jim that is awesome. I hope you get it going!
Thanks guys, really appreciate the encouragement.
I have verified the LFO and am working on verifying the Delay section. At the moment, no delay, I'll figure it out, hopefully. May be asking questions about the BBD's and LDR's.
Haberdasher, couldn't have got this far without your help on the boards! It almost looks like the original!! I did use all 1% resistors as that is what I had here and didn't want to order 5% resistors. Hopefully it won't affect the sound. Once this is done, someone will need to compare it to the real thing, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. I think Bean said in a seperate post somewhere that he wouldn't mind building one.
I'll keep everyone posted and when I get close to a fully functioning pedal, I'll make a seperate build report.
Jim
Quote from: electricstorm on January 10, 2013, 10:56:12 PM
Thanks guys, really appreciate the encouragement.
I have verified the LFO and am working on verifying the Delay section. At the moment, no delay, I'll figure it out, hopefully. May be asking questions about the BBD's and LDR's.
Haberdasher, couldn't have got this far without your help on the boards! It almost looks like the original!! I did use all 1% resistors as that is what I had here and didn't want to order 5% resistors. Hopefully it won't affect the sound. Once this is done, someone will need to compare it to the real thing, but we'll cross that bridge when we get there. I think Bean said in a seperate post somewhere that he wouldn't mind building one.
I'll keep everyone posted and when I get close to a fully functioning pedal, I'll make a seperate build report.
Jim
Hi
Once its done (and I intend to help you with the parts and voltages) I would be more than happy to compare it to my original, if you were happy to ship it to the UK for me to do so.
Ian
That is a scary, scary board, and I kinda want one now. Gaaah.
What is the '1200' component in the top right?
QuoteOnce its done (and I intend to help you with the parts and voltages) I would be more than happy to compare it to my original, if you were happy to ship it to the UK for me to do so.
When it's finished, we can work something out. Thanks for the offer!
QuoteThat is a scary, scary board, and I kinda want one now. Gaaah.
It really isn't that bad as far as a build. Just have to take your time and check your work. The verification part is a bit time consuming though.
Quote
What is the '1200' component in the top right?
It's an isolation/matching transformer for the "Time Out" portion of the pedal.
Hi
Here are my updates to the fairly long list of debugging points.
I didnt get time to take the PCB out, requires desoldering and lots of screws. I will do that as soon as I get time. For what its worth here are most of the other answers.
Supply voltage was 11.2v. That shouldnt really matter - you can assume supply and 1/2 supply voltages and go from there. For some reason none of my PSUs wanted to put out 9v on my bench. My decent regulated one is all wired into my pedalboard and I have rehearsals tonight and show on the weekend so I cant take it off right now.
Here is the list:
Daughter board:
1) Color of the LED. I know it is water clear, but is is a high
brightness green LED?
- Don't know how to answer that exactly. Its Clear Green and says HB on the PCB. So yeah, it's a high bright in my opinion.
2) What are the voltages at all pins for both IC's?
- 1 0v 7.57v
- 2 2.75v 2.79v
- 3 3.56v 0v
- 4 6.97v 3.04v
- 5 7.48v 3.52v
- 6 2.99v 3.63v
- 7 4.29v 3.66v
- 8 4.28v 7.04v
3) What is the voltage on pin 2 of the 22k trim pot (center pin/lug)?
- 3.77v
4) What is the voltage on the banded side of the vertical diode (far
left hand side of the daughter board)?
- 0v
- to the "right" of the horizontal diode its reading ~7.5v
5) What resistance is the light and dark resistance of the LDR?
- not desoldering unless absoutely essential, sorry.
Main board:
1) What is the voltage at pin 2 (center pin) of the 22k trimmer?
- 2.79v
2) What are the voltages of each pin of IC1?
- 1 9.20v
- 2 5.07
- 3 4.7-6.0 approx fluctuating
- 4 10.5
- 5 5.25
- 6 5.06
- 7 4.6 – 6v fluctuating
- 8 3.5 – 7.5v fluctuating
- 9 5.27v
- 10 5.22v
- 11 0v
- 12 4.93v
- 13 5.18v
- 14 5.19v
3) What are the Emiter, Base, and Colector voltages of each transistor?
- Gonna take too long to measure right now...
4) What is the value of D2 (1N4148 or something else. May be a zener)?
- requires board removal, see above
5) What are the values of the two diodes in front of Q9 (the rats nest)?
- requires board removal, see above
6) What is the value of the cap in front of Q9 (rats nest)?
- requires board removal, see above
7) What resistance is the light and dark LDR's (LDR1, :LDR2, LDR3)?
- requires desoldering, see above
8) Do the LDR LED's (LED1, LED2, LED5) go completely out when oscillating?
- Depends on the position of the manual control for LED1. For the other two, controlling the tremolo, this is a fixed depth, so they stay the same medium bright regarless, and just flash with the rate control. Only oscillating when Space (Red) is engaged.
9) How bright do these LED's get (do they get bright or just dimly lit)?
- See above.
10) Does the LED for LDR3 (far right edge of the board. I believe it
is used for the Space switch, not sure) oscillate or does it just come
on when used?
Is it bright or dimly lit?
- Only on when Time (Green) is engaged. Medium brightness.
11) Is there a second BC397B and if so, what is the location of it
(Q14 is the first)?
- requires board removal, see above
12) If there is no second BC307B, can you confirm the following:
BC549 - Q1, Q2, Q4, Q6, Q8, Q9, Q11, Q12, Q13, Q16, Q17
BC307B - Q14 (obviously)
J113 - Q3, Q5, Q7, Q10,Q15
- requires board removal, see above
13) If you have it, What is the light and dark resistance of the light
jack (I believe it to be 100K dark, but not sure)?
14) You may need to download the latest wiring diagram from
electristorm's dropbox for the following:
Confirm wiring connections, if incorrect, where does the incorrect
wire connet to?
- requires board removal, see above
If the wiring diagram is correct and if I have a connection going to a
designator that is incorrect (for instance, I have the Time Out jack
connecting to the OEP1200 transformer. The designation I gave them was
"C" and "F") would you provide the correct designation?
- requires board removal, see above
15) On the outside of the flanger, are the Red, Green and Yellow LED's
bright or dim when on?
- With the settings as you want them, Loop (yellow) is always on but not bright when engaged. Time (Green) is on and dim when engaged, Space (Red) is on and Dim when engaged. Switching the LFO to square wave for the Space increases the brightness a tad. Increasing manual and or depth increases the brightness of Time (Green).
- LED 1 on the daughter board is the Time LED (flange / delay LFO control). IT behaves in the opposite to the Time footswitch LED when Manual is adjusted.
When you take the voltage readings for the transistors, IC and any
other voltage, set the controls to the following:
Manual, Depth, Rate, I/P Gain - Fully CCW (counter-clock-wise)
Reaction, Action - 12 o'clock
LFO selector - setting closest to the controls ( first selection from the top)
Mono/Stereo - Mono mode
All footswitches - OFF (or what you consider to be off)
No input signal.
Nothing plugged into any of the jacks except the power jack.
Thanks A LOT Ian! This is greatly appreciated!!!
You're welcome. Thanks for your patience.
Thanks again Ian!
At least with the voltages (and setting my PSU to 11.2v) I can do some checking around the IC's.
I had been using 9v (the manual says 12v MAX) for some testing. The LFO is working, I get a
square and triangle wave output, so I assume the transistors are correct for this section. I have
also passed some signal through the I/P Gain section, although a little weak. For the time being,
I am using a tone generator for my signal input and an audio probe for tracing signals.
Missing from the list was C6 (tatnalum cap), need that value too when you get time. I have a
10uF, 35v tant in the C6 location now for testing purposes, but it may not be the right value.
Futurlec is holding me up on some of the LDR's I ordered back in December. For now, I'll use
what I have (500k dark, 20k - 30k light) although it may not have a very large sweep.
Jim
The diodes all appear to the 1n4148 type but its almost impossible to tell 100%. They look very similar to those in the dopp, and 1n4148 work there.
The cap in front of q9 is a 10uF / 35v electro, or if you mean the box cap near there, 47nF.
Regards
The cap that was soldered in with the two diodes and the resistor was the one I was talking about along with the tant at C6.
Thanks for the info! Very much appreciated.
Jim
I have assembled the Flange ? as if it were to be boxed. All switches, jacks and wiring has been done. The I/P Gain, Depth, Rate, Manual, Action, and Reaction controls are working (after a few bad starts, will mention this later). It is flanging and has tremolo. The bias is a bit touchy on the BBD's, but I think I have it set correctly.
It produces some very unusual sounds along with the flanging. The Action and Reaction controls are "Center Off" type of controls, moving them in either direction produces slightly different sounds. The loopage foot switch only allows you to switch in or out the FX loop, nothing more. The Time foot switch seems to control the flanging portion, but also seems to interact with the tremolo. The Space foot switch seems to control the tremolo but also seem to interact with the flanger portion. I need to do some more experimentation with it.
Futurelec is holding up my order that I placed back in December. I had ordered several LDR's from them to try in the flanger. The only LDR's I have at the moment only produce a narrow "phasing" or "sweep range". They are about 5k - 10k light and 500k dark. Need 10k - 20k light, 1m dark at least and maybe something in the range of 20k - 50k light, 10m or 20m dark.
The main board LED's are diffuse green. The daughter board has a clear LED marked H.B. and have assumed it was a high brightness LED. Using a high brightness LED there causes sever ticking in the audio. I have three different diffused and tinted green LED's and tried those on the daughter board. One of them mad the ticking minimal. Now you can only hear ticking slightly when using the square wave portion of the LFO. It might be tolerable. Anyone have any suggestions?
Now, the "few bad starts" I mentioned had to do with the BBD's. I had ordered sixteen sets of MN3102/MN3207 combos from Polida on eBay. I thought I had blown the BBD's and decided to check them out in an old Radio Shack delay I had laying around (uses the same BBD's). All of the MN3102 worked fine, but out of 16 MN3207's, only four passed a delayed signal. The rest only passed a "Dry" signal. Anyone else have any problems like this before? Out of the four that were good, the delay time was shorter on them than than the original MN3207 from the RS delay. All of the MN3102's would drive the original MN3207 with no problems. I am currently using the original MN3207 from the RS delay in the flanger for now.
The substitutes at Smallbear, does anyone know if they will plug right in or do they need different voltages? I know they are pinout compatible, but not sure about voltage compatibility. Need to find some datasheets on them.
This is as far as I have gotten on the project so far. Will post some more pictures soon.
Jim
cool update
the clear green LED On the daughter never goes that bright in the real unit, so try other ones. I found when doing the work on the DOPP that diffuse green LEDs worked well - check my build doc for that for some hints and tips on experimentation.
With regards the flange (Time) and trem (Space circuits) they are highly interactive when both engaged, this is to be expected. on its own the Space circuit is a fixed depth, square or sine wave LFO tremolo, with only the rate (and I/P gain, which is universal and "always on" even in bypass) controlling it.
The Action and Reaction controls are centre off as you suggest - they select the amount of resonanace and of what polarity the feedback path is, and then the amount of regeneration / feedback. Biased at 9v you'll find you get a bit less range out of these controls. At 12v you'll get more "action" outta the usable sweep before onset of feedback. Also, you will find that if you have one control positive, the other negative, and vice versa, feedback will kick in earlier. This is fun of course, but is a frustration when "just" trying to get a normal chorus or flange tone outta the thing.
The Loop is behaving normally. The recommended "cool thing" for this is to add a digital delay on 1 repeat into the loop. The pedal will then turn this into an analog sounding delay with repeats controlled by the feedback (reaction) control.
I assume part of this was already known as I think the manual is online, but if you need a copy just ask.
as for the mn3207 issue, I beleive the Cool Audio reproductions are pin for pin, but might be 9v limited?
The testing, up until last night, had been done with a tone generator. I hooked up my guitar to it last night. Pretty neat and unusual sounds out of it. I need to do some more testing with it, especially when I get the LDR's I'm waiting on.
As for the ticking with the square wave portion of the LFO, I'll try some things there. Although I do not yet have that little bundle of parts in the lower right-hand corner of the board soldered in yet (the resistor, cap and 2 diodes). That may be part of the ticking problem as it is in the return path from the daughter board. Otherwise, not sure what that part of the circuit does just yet.
Jim
Here's a photo update on the Lovetone Flanger:
Top side (the LED/LDR is missing from the daughter board)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img62/8899/1004467j.jpg)
What I call the rat's nest
(http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5719/1004471g.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/690/1004471g.jpg/)
Back side
(http://imageshack.us/a/img707/7817/1004472cw.jpg)
Switches
(http://imageshack.us/a/img842/6403/1004475i.jpg)
The big black things toward the bottom center are Vactrols (VTL5C3) that I am trying for now. So far, they sound better than the LDR/LED combos but that may be due to the fact I don't have all the LDR's yet to try. The Vactrols don't work for the daughter board. It kills the delay and re-setting the bias does nothing for it.
Using a green diffused LED on the daughter board seems to eliminate the ticking. There is a thumping sound only on the square wave selection of the LFO. The manual mentions something about thumping when selecting the square wave. I guess this is what it what it is talking about. The triangle wave gives a decent sweep, but maybe it could be better with different LDR's. Just a guess.
I have obtained some flanger sounds but can't seem to nail the chorus sound yet. The rate for the LFO is selectable from an extremely SLOW rate to an over-the-top fast oscillation. At the upper end of the rate control I can get a sort of ring modulation sound.
I added the 1N4148 diode to the D2 location and will re-test this later.
That's about it for now.
Jim
Y'all are just killing it.
You could email Steve at Smallbear to ask about the pin out. Tell him what you are doing and I think he will respond to you quickly. I know many folks who have emailed him for info such as this.
Damn, if I had the LDR values I'd send em'. The one time I ordered from Futurelec was the last. I'm not waiting 8 weeks for a parts order in the year 2013. For a custom amp/guitar, sure I'll wait but not parts ::)
That's a lot of knobs Jim! Can't wait to see it go.
Quote from: electricstorm on January 21, 2013, 06:56:36 PM
At the upper end of the rate control I can get a sort of ring modulation sound.
Jim
Nice looking work. Its not a rats nest at all - pretty similar to the Lovetone wiring actually, so pat yourself on the back.
The observation on the rate control is correct and as per the vintage unit.
Thanks Ian. At least we now know part of it is like the original unit. I'll keep plugging away at it and post the results for some comparison.
Thanks TNblueshawk and Jimilee!
The wiring has been verified and redrawn and the project is moving along. Still in the debugging stages and waiting for a few more parts to come in. The I/P Gain issue of being too weak may be due to the wrong transistor being used. I had ordered BC549C's but received BC549's. After consulting with Govmnt_Lacky and Toneman, it was discovered that the BC549C has an Hfe of 600 while the BC549 has an Hfe of 200. This is most likely the cause of the weak gain. I will order the BC549C's and try that in the flanger then post the results later.
Here are the new wiring diagrams:
Main and Daughter Board wiring
(http://imageshack.us/a/img59/7077/maindaughterboardwiring.png)
Main Board Jack wiring
(http://imageshack.us/a/img248/1106/mainboardjackwiring.png)
Main Board Switch Wiring
(http://imageshack.us/a/img441/8779/mainboardswitchwiring.png)
Jim
Edit: Updated wiring diagrams to the latest version as of 4/8/2013.
To update everyone, here is the latest on the Lovetone Flanger.
I used a 1N4148 for D2 and tested the Gate/Trig jack's function. It works just as described in the users manual.
After trying as many combinations of "Roll Your Own" vactrols as I could (some of my LDR's are still not here), actual vactrols seem to work best for the tremolo effect of the pedal. The VTL5C3 works best for the main board, however, it really sucks on the daughter board. When using the vactrols on the daughter board, it produces a ticking sound when the LFO is set to the triangle wave output and a severe thumping sound when the LFO uses the square wave output. This only seems to happen when the "Time" switch is engaged (allowing you to use the delay or daughter board for flanging/chorus/vibe). I have tried several "roll your own" vactrols with some success, just haven't hit the correct combination yet. I'll let you know when I stumble upon a combination that works here. The square wave output produces thumping with or without the delay engaged and the manual mentions a thumping sound when switching the LFO from triangle to square wave so I assume this is normal. Maybe Lacesensor can comment on this as he has the original flanger.
But for now it looks like VTL5C3's will be used on the main board in my build. A close second is the diffused green LED with an LDR with a resistance of light 10K, Dark 20M for LDR1/LED1 and LDR2/LED2. For LDR3/LED5, this just turns on/off the "Regen" portion of the board when the "Time" switch is engaged. When the "Time" switch is off, the LDR blocks the signal from going through the regen circuit (Action and Reaction controls). Either a VTL5C3 work fine here and the VTL5C2 works ok. A diffused green LED and and LDR works good here also. An LDR with a resistance of light 10K, Dark at least 1M but Dark 10M ~ 20M works better. This will have to be selected for your own personal tastes for the Regen circuit. The dark 1M seemed to allow slight regen bleed-through into the signal when off, but was minimal. I believe the idea was to cut if off entirely.
The BBD's from Smallbear seem to work better than the BBD's from Polida. While the one's from Polida did seem to work ok (provided you get a set that are not dead!!), the range in delay was less than the Smallbear BBD's and all BBD's seemed to have less delay time than my original Panasonic BBD's (MN3207) Doesn't seem to matter which clock IC was used (MN3102, V3201D, BL3102). All clock IC's seemed to work with the other BBD's with no noticeable difference in sound. However, the Cool Audio BBD's did seem to work better than the BBD's from China that Smallbear sells. But overall, both seemed to be acceptable. I did have one BBD that seems to cut in and out (BL3207 from China) but no problem with the Cool Audio BBD's.
For those interested in how the flanger works, here is a block diagram for you to look at.
(http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3937/lovetoneflangerblockdia.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/lovetoneflangerblockdia.jpg/)
Explanation from the manual:
(Block diagram is simplified and not necessarily theoretically correct)
Input signal level is adjusted by the I/P Gain control, which also affects the bypass level. The signal is then split into two main paths: (a) straight path which comes out at Space(d) Out/Mono (via Space mod) and (b) delay path which goes via the FX loop (normalized if nothing is connected) into the delay line. The Reaction control (center-zero/off) sets the level of Regen/Feedback which is fed back in before the FX loop. The FX loop is therefore included in the Regen path (c). The delay path then goes via the Time footswitch and out at Time Out at a level which is determined by the Action control (center-zero/off). When the Time footswitch is "off" the delay path is bypassed completely and the output of the I/P Gain section goes straight to Time Out as shown by (d). The LFO can be used to modulate the delay time at an amount set by the Depth control and/or the straight path to create Space mod (at a fixed amount if selected by the Space footswitch). If nothing is connected to Time Out, it's output will automatically be routed to Space(d) Out/Mono as shown by (e) and summed with Space mod to create a mono output.
According to the manual, you need to understand the above explanation in order to understand how the controls work.
Jim
the thump Vlad/Dan refer to is just a switching mechanical clunk
the square wave shouldnt thump unless you have the depth and manual cranked up
hth
Ian, I was going to ask you about that. It does seem to be most intense when the manual and depth are all the way up. The delay seems to disappear when manual OR depth are fully to the left (anticlockwise, counterclockwise). I understand why with the depth but the manual I am confused about. There is no delay except when the rate control is turned up enough to sweep at a medium-slow pace (about 1/3 of the way up) and gives a phasing sound when using the manual and depth controls. Is this the same on the original flanger?
I may have other questions later, but the thumping sound seems to be directly related to the resistance of the LDR and the brightness of the diffuse green LED used. I guess I need to make a diagram showing the settings I used and what they sound like and see if you get the same results with yours.
It would be better if I could post sound samples, but at the moment I have no way to record the sound for an upload. Any suggestions on how to do a sound sample anyone??
Wanted to thank Haberdasher for another great etch of the revised Lovetone flanger boards! Got them today and they look sweet with the revisions. I did a dry fit of the components into the two revised areas and they fit perfectly (the diodes and resistors I knew would have to be placed standing up). Great work man!!
I am working out one more bug and will post results later on the original build. Build docs are coming along slowly....
Jim
What does the ?Flanger sound like, compared to the 'fluid' Collosalus and the 'clangy' Electric Mistress? (YMMV on the toan for these, of course.)
Alan,
Lacesensor has one and can probably answer your question better than me, but I'll take a stab at it. It isn't as "lush" as the Electric Mistress (I think the EM uses MN3007 where the ? Flang uses MN3207). It doesn't seem to have the "jet" type swooooosshing sound of the EM. I haven't heard the Collosalus so I can't comment on the comparison there. I can say from the clone that I'm working on that it can do some chorusing, flanging, phasing (sort of), tremolo/vibrato (vibrato kind of), and a faux/psuedo type of ring modulation. It can also self-oscillate and give some science fiction types of FX, which may not be the best for making music unless you have a synth.
Maybe Lacesensor can chime in and correct me where I may be wrong. I tried to buy one on fleabay last night so I could compare the clone to it. I gave up at $1,400.00. It eventually sold for $2,750.00!! ten minutes later another one went up on fleabay for a "Buy It Now" price of $2,700.00, there was no "Bid" button. Too rich for my blood!!!
Jim
I'll just say you don't buy a lovetone flanger for standard flanger sounds.
It's a whole lot more and actually doesn't excel at the full on jet plane sound.
I haven't built the collosalus yet
For me the best flanger is the Ada and I strongly recommend building the mn3007 version from moosapotamus.
The Lovetone ? Flanger is finally finished. I am working on the build docs and I need to correct the schematic and one wiring diagram (it was verified, but I made an error when I posted it).
So, hopefully soon, those that are interested can build their own clone of the Lovetone Flanger. I have a Wobulator in for repair that I hope to clone next.
Quote from: electricstorm on March 21, 2013, 01:41:25 AM
The Lovetone ? Flanger is finally finished. I am working on the build docs and I need to correct the schematic and one wiring diagram (it was verified, but I made an error when I posted it).
So, hopefully soon, those that are interested can build their own clone of the Lovetone Flanger. I have a Wobulator in for repair that I hope to clone next.
Yes Yes Yes, I can Haz Lovetone?
That's going on the 'to do' list. (It keeps getting longer... lucky for me it is sometimes more of a stack than a list.)
Quote from: alanp on March 21, 2013, 04:15:26 AM
That's going on the 'to do' list. (It keeps getting longer... lucky for me it is sometimes more of a stack than a list.)
Yep got stacks myself. So cool,stacks of pcb's turn into piles of pedals.i love it.
Here is a look at the revised board that now allows you to add the parts to the PCB instead of soldering them to other components like the factory did with whatever mod that was done.
(http://imageshack.us/a/img4/6013/1004479g.jpg)
This is how it looked before the board was revised (the R24 mod can't be seen in this photo).
(http://imageshack.us/a/img690/5719/1004471g.jpg)
Jim
Quote from: electricstorm on November 23, 2012, 10:45:12 PM
I'm not as good as Brian, Josh, or some other Eagle experts here, but here is my doublesided Doppelganger board. As I said earlier, I'm still learning how to use Eagle. I have not finished the wiring details yet, in case anyone is wondering what all the SW connections are for. These will connect to the foot switches and toggle switches.
(http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3193/doppelgangerbdimage.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/849/doppelgangerbdimage.png/)
The board is limited in size as I have the Eagle lite version and it limits you to the size board you can do. Anyway, I hope to finish checking some things and send this to Osh Park soon so I can verify it.
Rotary switches, LED's (except LDR LED's), and Pots will mount to the back side of the board. I used 9mm pots for this layout. A little nervous about the spacing for knobs!
Let me know what you think.
I'm looking for an Eagle .lbr with that exact rotary switch. Can you please point me in the right direction to where I can download it? Or did you create the part in Eagle yourself? Any help anyone can give is appreciated.
- Joe.
http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=12945.0 (http://www.madbeanpedals.com/forum/index.php?topic=12945.0)
Check the 2014 version.