I don't think so, but this article is really interesting (keep in mind this is from 2011).
http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2011/feb/05/top-gear-offensive-steve-coogan
I know there are plenty Top Gear fans here, but the guy has a point, and his writing is flawless. I've always supported the idea that you cannot censor any kind of humor and that you can laugh at everything, and I still do.
This article is worth five minutes of your time.
I dig many kinds of humor, even the offensive one, the black one, or the bad one (I dig that last one a lot).
But there's always a context. Or not? I've been thinking about it lately and haven't reached any conclusion.
Maybe some of you have meditated about it and can show some strong opinions on this topic.
I always thought Jeremy was a dork that tried too hard. I watched that show to see Tif, who could actually drive, and offer something worthwhile about the cars.
It boggles my mind that stand ups get shit for things they say in comedy clubs. Not everyone works it like Seinfeld.
Patrice O'Neill is one of my favorite comedians of all time, but probably offended a large percentage of people
From the original question yes and no...
Certain types of comedy age badly. Obviously anything that's based on current events. But also things that could be labeled offensive. Eventually that becomes crass and unfunny.
That said other's that have aged. I was gutted to watch Sleeper recently, a film I loved as a kid and just not find it funny at all. Terrified me that I'd not find Mel Brooks funny any more also (fond memories of Blazing Saddles and History of the World).
That said, some humour just endures. Airplane, despite being based on 80's disaster movies, still is damned funny. Life of Brian may well go down in history as the greatest funny film of all time it's so perfect.
Anyhow, Top Gear. There humour is 'laddish' humour with added Last of the Summer Wine shenanigans because, quite frankly, they're old blokes dicking around most of the time. Which is what groups of old blokes do. It's occasionally amusing, like that sort of thing is. But it's repetitive and a bit tiring at times. I've watched one episode of this season and it was enough for me to realise I was right in stopping watching it.
This iteration of Top Gear was good a couple of years in when May had just joined and they'd got the formula about right. It was still only watched by a handful of people and there were about 20 people in the studio. As they knew very few people watched it and those that did were into cars the articles were more interesting to car nuts and the humour was much more spontaneous. As was the cocking around. It was much less scripted.
It was a victim of it's own success as it started to appeal to more and more people and they weren't necessarily interested in cars. I stand by that they should have called it a day with the Aston Martin - death of the supercar article they did. They were at their peak and had just started to recycle. The signs were there enough for me to say, it'd done now, let's move on.
But it had become a cash cow, and rather than let things die a natural death, they need to be milked, and milked until there's nothing left but three fat old men doing the same thing week in week out and it's edge comes from who they can offend this week. It's not that the humour has become stale, this whole iteration of Top Gear has.
As for Clarkson. Whatever. He won't give a flying fuck. He can wipe his tears on his millions. He's a writer, journalist and can make bloody good war documentaries when he puts his mind to it. May is another writer, journalist and makes excellent science/toy programmes outside Top Gear. Hammond can continue to do commentary on Total Wipeout... Not to mention that they'll Have Sky, ITV, CH4, Dave, etc queuing up for them to do Sixth Gear, or whatever. Let's not forget that TG makes the BBC MEEEEEEELIONS of pounds as it's sold all around the world. It would be very easy for the three of them to continue to milk the shit out of it on another channel and be a guaranteed success.
Who loses is the BBC, quite simply. It's just about their top paying show. Regardless of what I think about it, there are so many more people that can't get enough.
Indeed I can see there being a backlash when it comes to the license fee if they drop Top Gear. We've already lost F1, there's not a lot of reason left to have a license these days unless you particularly like endless reality TV shit.
Yep Coogan's the man 8)
My problem with TopGear is that I don't even find it remotely funny. It's also a bit worrying if TopGear is our worldwide representation of the output from the BBC.
Clarkson's days may well be done with TopGear. Like Juan says, I don't think he'll be crying into his pint of lager about it. He'll get offers from all over.
Maybe let Clarkson's mini-doppelganger go at the same time too... bring in some new presenters to modernize the show.
Guy Martin as new presenter is a rumour doing the rounds (wishful thinking no doubt).
That guy is a PROPER dude... and would freshen the show up no end. Would stop it being the televised midlife crisis it is.
Russell Brand, although incredibly annoying and up his own arse at times, has also made some interesting (and bang on IMO) points:
Guy Martin is to engineering what Fred Dibnah used to be. Love the bloke and what he does, but he's not a motoring journalist, which is what a programme like TG needs. Or at least used to need. It used to need someone who could articulate in an interesting manner what cars are like. Both May and Clarkson used to do this which is why they're good at it. Hammond irritates me most because he's the DJ that's trying to be Clarkson. He's the bullies suck up as Coogan puts it. The actual car review side of things seems to have disappeared.
Also I dislike Brand intensely. He's outspoken sure, he's also an insensitive dick head. After all who phones up an old man and mocks him publicly on TV after banging his daughter. I cannot think of anything Clarkson may have done in the past that's more offensive that that, and downright nasty in the name of humour. That and he's very London-centric. Let's abandon the car. Yes that's a great idea if you live in the capitol where the car is actually a nuisance. Bit of a problem if you live anywhere else where the public transport system simply doesn't work.
That doesn't for one second mean I'm defending Clarkson. He's just as much of a knob at times. But if I had to choose, I'd choose May... Sorry I mean Clarkson.
All worthwhile humor involves the audience. The joke teller shares in the joke with the audience. You can't do that if you're making a joke that makes fun of someone's culture or relies on stereotypes, because then you exclude people from the joke if they don't share your stereotyping.
Offending people is a cheap laugh; it's not durable and it will not even make everyone laugh at the time the joke is made. Racist jokes are pretty much the worst.
Spoof and satire make fun of something but endure when done properly because they are born out of a love of the subject. (Spoof, especially, requires that you actually love the genre you're spoofing, because how else do you know what's really a
fault and what's just camp/quirk?)
Satire requires a lot of anger to do properly but you can't get angry if you don't have something to fight for, and good satire requires the moral high ground, I'd go so far as to say "in a Kantian sense." It has to hit at something that can be universally understood as A Good Thing. The article hit on that some.
What's left? Absurdity, slapstick, etc.
So yes, I absolutely believe that there's a limit to comedy. But more importantly, there's such a thing as decency and respect for your fellow human beings.
But these are really two different things. There is "Should someone not say something?" and then there is "Should people in general be discouraged from expressing themselves as they see fit?" The first is a matter of personal wisdom, which everyone lacks from time to time. The second is a social matter and personally I think that the answer is "probably no," as long as they're willing to bear the consequences and as long as they aren't harming others.
This is my favorite thing from the article:
QuotePart of the blame must lie with what some like to call the "postmodern" reaction to overzealous political correctness. Sometimes, it's true, things need a shakeup; orthodoxies need to be challenged.
Some people believe that they should be able to spout off whatever offensive nonsense you want, and that anyone who chastises them is just being politically correct and That's Bad. It's a tautological argument in the first place ("Doing what I want is right and anyone who tells me I shouldn't is wrong"). If you read up a little on the history of the term "politically correct" and its usage, it's no surprise that it turns out to be a dog whistle.
This reminds me an episode of The Simpsons where Krusty the Clown is failing and during a painfully bad bit, he does a very stereotypical impression of an asian person, much to the disgust of the audience.
As was mentioned, I think some jokes expire, some are timeless. There will always be someone willing to "go there", wherever it is, and there will always be someone saying "Oh no you didn't". Does comedy have limits? Yes, but the limit will vary depending on the audience or individual.
I had no idea that TG was even remotely that popular. We have an American version as well as the UK version. I watch for the cars, not the humor. So as it evolved, I lost interest in the UK version and gravitated to the US version. I has some humor, mostly in the form of the 3 constantly pranking each other, but in the end, is a show about cars.
I don't think there is any limit to comedy other then hurting other people physically or psychologically against their will. Does that mean there will be an awful lot of bad comedy because of it? Hell yeah. As I get older I notice that a lot of new comedy is completely not funny to me. I keep on enjoying what I used to enjoy, but new stuff is becoming more and more a hit and miss. Guess I'm finally becoming an old fart. Should I start huffing and puffing about like some sad politically correct flame warrior? No. Because the right of free speech should take precedence over people's insensibilities. If you don't like something, just change the channel and watch something else instead. It's what I do.
As for Top Gear, I fecking LOVE it! I don't give $0.02 about the cars they're reviewing as cars other then a means to haul my gear around do not interest me one bit. But I love their laddish humor and especially Clarkson's political incorrectness. The more it pisses off the politically correct classes, the better! Has it become stale? Kinda. Theirs only so much you can do with their format that they haven't already done, but as long as its still three guys visibly enjoying themselves and still funny to watch, who cares? South Park has also gone stale in that regard, Family Guy has gone stale in that regard. The only thing I no longer watch is the Simpsons as it has gone beyond stale, its actually decomposing.
Oh trust me there is a limit to what is acceptable in comedy.
Watch some of this guy (Roy Chubby Brown) and I'm sure you will agree...
(http://i1.gazettelive.co.uk/incoming/article3605743.ece/alternates/s615/roy-chubby-brown-338008414.jpg)
Add to that Bernard Manning and the likes of Jim Davidson, etc.
But it is of an era, as in there day's they were popular...
For comedy? No, not really.
George Carlin did a great bit about how you can literally joke about anything, including rape or cancer. It's all about how you exaggerate to make the bit funny.
So you either have to tell the bald truth (and it must be true!), or you have to exaggerate so wildly that it's obvious you are being humorous. Sitting in the middle is, at best, douchey; at worst it is ignorance and/or hate poorly disguised as a joke.
I think another question for discussion is: Does the show Top Gear qualify as a comedy show?
I have not watched an entire episode, but it seemed to me to be old-fart rich white guys dicking around with expensive cars. AKA, business as usual in the first world West. Not especially funny, to me.
Quote from: raulduke on March 13, 2015, 04:33:47 PM
Oh trust me there is a limit to what is acceptable in comedy.
Watch some of this guy (Roy Chubby Brown) and I'm sure you will agree...
Again, if you don't like something, why watch it and why get worked up over it?
There is growing income inequality in the world, ebola rages still in Africa, practically the whole Sahara and Middle East is now a no go area thanks to Islamic terrorism, the polar ice caps in the North Pole are melting thanks to climate change, continuing instability in the Ukraine and former USSR. And yet we get worked up over a few comedians who may or may not be funny????? Maybe a little less political correctness is in order and a lot more get back to the real problems we face as a species!
Quote from: Muadzin on March 13, 2015, 05:43:24 PMMaybe a little less political correctness is in order and a lot more get back to the real problems we face as a species!
Have you considered that "political correctness" might actually be born out of a desire to understand one's fellow human beings and not simply "not offending people"? Many ills of society are reinforced simply by language. Publicly making it clear that someone's statement is unacceptable for current or ideal social norms can have implications that go way beyond just deciding whether someone's funny or not, and changing the channel doesn't change the world.
Quote from: Muadzin on March 13, 2015, 05:43:24 PM
Quote from: raulduke on March 13, 2015, 04:33:47 PM
Oh trust me there is a limit to what is acceptable in comedy.
Watch some of this guy (Roy Chubby Brown) and I'm sure you will agree...
Again, if you don't like something, why watch it and why get worked up over it?
There is growing income inequality in the world, ebola rages still in Africa, practically the whole Sahara and Middle East is now a no go area thanks to Islamic terrorism, the polar ice caps in the North Pole are melting thanks to climate change, continuing instability in the Ukraine and former USSR. And yet we get worked up over a few comedians who may or may not be funny????? Maybe a little less political correctness is in order and a lot more get back to the real problems we face as a species!
I can't say I get worked up over it. I certainly won't be loosing any sleep worrying about Chubby Brown cracking another homophobic/racist/sexist (take your pick) joke.
I don't watch him... but I know who enough about him, and have seen enough of his material through various sources over the years, to know what he is and what attitude to various minorities he has.
If he's entitled to crack his jokes (free speech and all that), then am I not entitled to think he's a racist piece of shit?
Things won't get better if we just brush it all under the carpet and pretend that these problems and attitudes don't still exist.
I think there is a line... but some people cross the line and try to cover it under a veil as 'comedy' and 'just for laughs'.
EDIT: Just seen Jon's post, and as per usual, he has hit the nail on the head.
Cut to the chase? Yeah, comedy can go too far and like most things in life there is a line that can be crossed. So where is the line? Depends on a butt load of factors, who you are, how you were brought up, where you live, your own culture, etc.. etc... . But the OP's question as I read it is can comedy go too far and sure it can. I also think that most reasonable people really do know what the line is when alone sitting in a chair contemplating what is right and wrong. Whether they admit it to others or take that all too familiar 'free speech' argument (and we all know that is not an absolute right either) and flaunt it around is another thing altogether.
I've never quite understood why if you put it under the guise of "comedy" then it's ok to say what you want no matter how disgustingly offensive and harmful it could be but if not trying to be comedic it is not ok? What is really the difference? So if the joke is funny then it is ok and if the joke is not funny it is still ok or not ok? If still ok and not funny then how is that comedy? Is it like pool where you call the 8 ball in the corner pocket and as long as you call comedy then anything and everything is on the table?
So think about the biggest racist, bigot, homophobe, jewish hating, male chauvinist douche bag you know and maybe think about some things this person said (or if you never knew anyone then imagine it or pull from books you've read) and think about how you feel about him or her and if they jumped on here and expoused their views how we all would just lay him/her to waste, right? (Or do we say right on brother...freedome of speech, feel free to speak some more?) Take the same person and they decide they want to be a comedian so they develop their act around these same views. That's cool because it is comedy and more power to him?
Or is there this element to where we are cool with certain things as long as we know the comedian doesn't really believe what they are saying and they are truly saying it just for jokes? Dunno. How do we know what the comedian really thinks unless maybe they are famous like Mel Gibson? Maybe Mel should do stand up. I'm sure he would hilairous as he talks about our Jewish friends. Or maybe he wouldn't be funny at all but if he says he is now a comedian all is well?
In reading this thread I think we all know we are not talking about the usual stereotypical jokes that have been around for a thousand + years. I won't mention them of course. I think we are really talking about more offensive and sinister things that truly challenge all of us as to what is funny or not. Making fun of people with autism or maybe some veterans who had half their head blown off? Yeah, that would be a real laugh..you know..as long as you hang the comedy sign in front it.
So yes, comedy can go too far and like porn I think we all truly know it when we see it. I have laughed at things before over the years and I knew when I did that joke crossed the line. So did I laugh? Yeah at least the first time I heard it or maybe not. Did it cross the line and really shouldn't have been a joke? Absolutely.
Just my 2pf's as I've thought about this before.
Now if you will excuse me I'm going to yell "fire" at work so I can get off early being Friday and all ;D
Quote from: juansolo on March 13, 2015, 09:27:31 AM
It was a victim of it's own success as it started to appeal to more and more people and they weren't necessarily interested in cars. I stand by that they should have called it a day with the Aston Martin - death of the supercar article they did. They were at their peak and had just started to recycle. The signs were there enough for me to say, it'd done now, let's move on.
Hate to say it, but I'm finding myself increasingly skipping through the new episodes of Top Gear.
Yawn. Yet another Ferrari. Yet another Porsche. Yet another tiny three door big engine car. Yet another race. Never thought I'd be bored of seeing yet another road legal go-fast go-kart.
Not to mention that it's rare for them to bring in a guest that I recognise, these days. I only recognised Will Smith (who I don't care about) and Gillian Anderson (who was interesting -- Agent Scully).
The races... they're becoming increasingly formulaic.
They should have done what Monster Garage did, and go out while they were still great.
Quote from: midwayfair on March 13, 2015, 06:03:40 PM
Quote from: Muadzin on March 13, 2015, 05:43:24 PMMaybe a little less political correctness is in order and a lot more get back to the real problems we face as a species!
Have you considered that "political correctness" might actually be born out of a desire to understand one's fellow human beings and not simply "not offending people"? Many ills of society are reinforced simply by language. Publicly making it clear that someone's statement is unacceptable for current or ideal social norms can have implications that go way beyond just deciding whether someone's funny or not, and changing the channel doesn't change the world.
I happen to think that what is wrong with the political correct movement is that it is trying to silence a way of thought and expression it does not agree with. It does so out of noble intentions, but the end result is censorship and death of freedom of speech. It's the road to hell. Because A: who are you are me to decide what is funny or not, and B: the people we disagree with, who we find deeply offensive and who's opinion we hope to change, have just as much of a right to express their opinions as everybody else. And C: for now we may find ourselves in agreement with such a movement, it could just as easily turn against us. The price of freedom of speech is that not only we do have to endure listening to things we find deeply offensive, we may actually be required to lay down our lives so other people can say these offensive things.
One thing I have noticed with comedy is that it allows people to say things using comedy that they would never get away with in a normal discussion. Comedians seem to be able to reach more people across a bigger political spectrum then normal activists/publicists. That is what makes comedy such a potent political weapon and why if we censor comedy freedom of speech will suffer even more.
The freedom of speech ensures that everybody can say whatever they want without reprisal from the government. There's no promise it will be without consequence from your peers.
But common decency hopefully guides people to thinking about what they say before they say it. Often people that spout hateful rhetoric are surprisingly sensitive when offensive words are used about things about them or things they care about.
Comedy can be a wonderful vehicle for breaking down barriers and challenging beliefs that have become stagnant. This is one of the great benefits of comedy. It can make us laugh while also making us think about the society we live in.
Unfortunately, comedy is also frequently used as a way to spew hateful and divisive views that serve absolutely no benefit to anybody. They are often said for selfish reasons and can encourage hateful views of some audience members while galvanizing feelings of exclusion from other audience members.
I don't think that government censorship is ever the right answer. But it doesn't bother me in the slightest if offensive comedians are held to task for their hate. Just because they claim it's comedy doesn't mean people have to accept it.
Of course, it's not quite black and white. As somebody said earlier in the thread, much of it is "I know it when I see or hear it." Monty Python skewed everybody and everything but it all seemed to be delivered with amusement, not hate. I don't like the side of political correctness that doesn't allow us to laugh at all of our differences, but people know when there is malice behind the joke.
Quote from: pickdropper on March 14, 2015, 07:16:45 PMOf course, it's not quite black and white. As somebody said earlier in the thread, much of it is "I know it when I see or hear it." Monty Python skewed everybody and everything but it all seemed to be delivered with amusement, not hate. I don't like the side of political correctness that doesn't allow us to laugh at all of our differences, but people know when there is malice behind the joke.
...and yet they managed to upset the General Synod and therefore Christians (who had not even seen the film) were up in arms about Life of Brian. I not sure comedy is even possible without offending somebody somewhere... FWIW, it was a hoooge deal at the time. Which was televised, then parodied by Not The Nine o'clock News ;)
when I think of top gear, I think of:
Brutal
See now though I agree with a lot of what he's saying, I don't find it funny. Whereas Frankie Boyle's Hammond comment (while he was still suffering from a brain injury...) was so far over the line BUT was funny. It was very much one of those 'too soon?' type moments, but I laughed... I'm probably going to hell.
Sorry for bringing this topic back to life guys. I had to read carefully every post and, although my opinion doesn't match everyones exposed here (I think that would be impossible :) ) is cool to have other point of views to learn from.
I'm glad this topic derived in harmless discussion. Comedy is a sensitive subject and it amazes me, as it has the ability to trigger very different emotions depending on the audience.
That said, I just read this in the newspaper:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/25/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear-contract-bbc
Quote from: micromegas on March 26, 2015, 10:11:13 AM
Sorry for bringing this topic back to life guys. I had to read carefully every post and, although my opinion doesn't match everyones exposed here (I think that would be impossible :) ) is cool to have other point of views to learn from.
I'm glad this topic derived in harmless discussion. Comedy is a sensitive subject and it amazes me, as it has the ability to trigger very different emotions depending on the audience.
That said, I just read this in the newspaper:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/25/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear-contract-bbc
It's funny, I re-read my own post and I'm not totally sure it matches my own opinion. Hehe
Truth is, it's pretty rare for comedy to offend me. There is very little in this world that can't be poked fun of a little bit. The only thing I really don't like is when people hide behind comedy to spread actually hateful views. I've seen more on a personal level than with professional comedians. The whole "hey it's just a joke" thing following a truly racist comment often leaves me a bit flat. I'm probably not explaining it well.
As far as Clarkson, that's beyond just controversial comedy. If you punch out a co-worker, it's pretty likely you are going to get sacked.
Quote from: pickdropper on March 26, 2015, 12:39:15 PM
Quote from: micromegas on March 26, 2015, 10:11:13 AM
Sorry for bringing this topic back to life guys. I had to read carefully every post and, although my opinion doesn't match everyones exposed here (I think that would be impossible :) ) is cool to have other point of views to learn from.
I'm glad this topic derived in harmless discussion. Comedy is a sensitive subject and it amazes me, as it has the ability to trigger very different emotions depending on the audience.
That said, I just read this in the newspaper:
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2015/mar/25/jeremy-clarkson-top-gear-contract-bbc
It's funny, I re-read my own post and I'm not totally sure it matches my own opinion. Hehe
Truth is, it's pretty rare for comedy to offend me. There is very little in this world that can't be poked fun of a little bit. The only thing I really don't like is when people hide behind comedy to spread actually hateful views. I've seen more on a personal level than with professional comedians. The whole "hey it's just a joke" thing following a truly racist comment often leaves me a bit flat. I'm probably not explaining it well.
As far as Clarkson, that's beyond just controversial comedy. If you punch out a co-worker, it's pretty likely you are going to get sacked.
You said it well as that is basically what I was saying in my rambling post too at the end of the day. And yeah, punching out the co-worker, no matter how many I've worked/work deserve it ;D 8) will get you fired.
They've been wanting shot of Clarkson for years, they've just not been able to do it because of he popularity and the amount of money he brings in (TG is worth something like £50m a year). So they pull him up on the slightest things. Even releasing pulled footage of him not saying the 'n' word to try and disgrace him. If the BBC wanted to keep him they would. They've promoted people who've bitten other colleagues and protected peadophiles since the 70's. I know you can't compare this to that. But that's the organisation we're talking about. Politicians have punched, on TV, protesters (to be fair he egged him). But that didn't result him him being sacked. No, they wanted rid, and they were just waiting for Clarkson to fuck up.
We also don't know the circumstances... I am an ultra-pacifist/coward/whatever, yet I came very, very close to twatting my boss once (thankfully a colleague could see how wound up I was and took me aside to calm down). So you just don't know what's brought it on, and we'll probably never know really. No there's no justification for hitting someone. But you can also be provoked into hitting someone if someone keeps relentlessly pushing your buttons (bullying isn't always throwing punches). A switch gets flicked in your head that basically says, fuck it, I really don't care any more.
It's a non-story. No-one loses here apart from, maybe sadly, the producer on the end of the punch.
I would agree that we don't know what Clarkson has had to deal with personally.
You can't assault a colleague and get away with it though.... you just can't. Maybe if he hadn't pissed off as many BBC bods in the past he would have got away with it. But he was on his last warning by all accounts.
It might also be a good thing for all involved...
Top Gear was getting stale, but it was such a cash cow there was no impetus for anyone to freshen/modernise it as they did 15 (or whatever) years ago.
Now they have no choice but to change the format...
Clarkson will also be inundated with offers. The ball is in his court as far as I'm concerned. I don't find the guy funny, but I know a lot of people do, and will want to continue watching/reading his work.
I'd put my money on Sky signing him and his cronies up for some lucrative re-hash within a couple of months ;)