My local distributor just anounced this on their facebook page:
(http://www.retroamplis.com/WebRoot/StoreES2/Shops/62070367/54CF/9A80/516F/9A5F/5DE9/C0A8/2AB9/0726/PT2399D-D.jpg)
PT2399D-D: they say is exactly like the PT2399 but with the distortion problem sorted out.
I'll get some to try and make a comparation.
Well, I'm excited to see that. I'll be getting some me-self for sure!
I actually heard about this in November but could not confirm it so I was just waiting it out. I hope this is true... but.. PTC has yet to answer my emails about the subject. I did find this PDF for the PT2399D but not "D-D" not sure if there is a real difference.
http://www.gwerder-elektronik.ch/files/PT2399D.pdf (http://www.gwerder-elektronik.ch/files/PT2399D.pdf)
The THD levels look the same as a standard PT2399 as far as I can tell.
I did notice this line:
PT2399D - Internal memory of 20k digital processing is used to generate the delay time.
PT2399 - Internal memory of 44k digital processing is used to generate the delay time.
If you do a search for "PT2399D-D" you get quite a few bulk china sales but no real information. So I hope this is not just a rebaged 2399 or a gimmick. We could definetly use some quieter 2399's in all our delay builds.
Cody
Might just be spec selected parts, which would be good, hopefully they'd be better regards latch up too.
My distributor says he has tried them and the change is appreciable, but he makes his living from selling them...
I need to place an order so I'll get some to try. Just populated a ZP Mini and I can do a side by side comparation.
Unless I am reading the datasheets wrong, it looks like the PT2399D has higher distortion at max rated delay settings.
PT2399 at 342ms = 1.0% THD
PT2399D at 342ms = 4.5% THD
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2015, 08:12:39 PM
Unless I am reading the datasheets wrong, it looks like the PT2399D has higher distortion at max rated delay settings.
PT2399 at 342ms = 1.0% THD
PT2399D at 342ms = 4.5% THD
I asked my distributor and he told me PT2399D-D's datasheet is the same as the standard PT2399, but I'll ask him again.
Quote from: micromegas on February 04, 2015, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2015, 08:12:39 PM
Unless I am reading the datasheets wrong, it looks like the PT2399D has higher distortion at max rated delay settings.
PT2399 at 342ms = 1.0% THD
PT2399D at 342ms = 4.5% THD
I asked my distributor and he told me PT2399D-D's datasheet is the same as the standard PT2399, but I'll ask him again.
You can read them here:
http://www.gwerder-elektronik.ch/files/PT2399D.pdf
http://sound.westhost.com/pt2399.pdf
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2015, 08:17:08 PM
Quote from: micromegas on February 04, 2015, 08:14:42 PM
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2015, 08:12:39 PM
Unless I am reading the datasheets wrong, it looks like the PT2399D has higher distortion at max rated delay settings.
PT2399 at 342ms = 1.0% THD
PT2399D at 342ms = 4.5% THD
I asked my distributor and he told me PT2399D-D's datasheet is the same as the standard PT2399, but I'll ask him again.
You can read them here:
http://www.gwerder-elektronik.ch/files/PT2399D.pdf
http://sound.westhost.com/pt2399.pdf
Thanks!
Ok, you're completely right Dave. I'll reach him and see what he has to say about it.
This is what he said on his facebook page:
"...esta versión trata de corregir los problemas de repeticiones distorsionadas que se presentan en algunas partidas de este chip. Los hemos comprobado en el taller y efectivamente no distorsionan, sobre todo en las frecuencias mas altas. La ficha técnica es la misma para ambos y es una versión no oficial del mismo"
Sloppy english translation:
"... this version tries to correct problems associated to distorted repetitions some batches presented. We've tried it in the workshop and, indeed, there's no distortion, especially at higher frequencies. Datasheet is the same for both (I asked him about the differences with PT2399) and this one is an official version of the same"
Wicked, that sounds indeed interesting...! 8)
Quote from: micromegas on February 04, 2015, 08:27:48 PM
Ok, you're completely right Dave. I'll reach him and see what he has to say about it.
This is what he said on his facebook page:
"...esta versión trata de corregir los problemas de repeticiones distorsionadas que se presentan en algunas partidas de este chip. Los hemos comprobado en el taller y efectivamente no distorsionan, sobre todo en las frecuencias mas altas. La ficha técnica es la misma para ambos y es una versión no oficial del mismo"
Sloppy english translation:
"... this version tries to correct problems associated to distorted repetitions some batches presented. We've tried it in the workshop and, indeed, there's no distortion, especially at higher frequencies. Datasheet is the same for both (I asked him about the differences with PT2399) and this one is an official version of the same"
That wouldn't seem to track with the datasheet, but perhaps there is more to the story. I'll be interested to find out more about these.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on February 04, 2015, 07:34:54 PM
... I did find this PDF for the PT2399D but not "D-D" not sure if there is a real difference. ...
From the PDF, the "D-D" is, in fact, the PT2399D in a DIP package, rather than a SOP (PT2399D-S)
Quote from: Justus on February 04, 2015, 09:18:58 PM
Quote from: selfdestroyer on February 04, 2015, 07:34:54 PM
... I did find this PDF for the PT2399D but not "D-D" not sure if there is a real difference. ...
From the PDF, the "D-D" is, in fact, the PT2399D in a DIP package, rather than a SOP (PT2399D-S)
Makes sense.
Cody
This actually seems like a lower grade chip. Other than the THD, it also has less than half of the memory.
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2015, 09:37:55 PM
This actually seems like a lower grade chip. Other than the THD, it also has less than half of the memory.
It might have an advantage in choruses and flangers, assuming the spec sheet is real. But yeah, as a delay, it looks much worse to me.
Quote from: pickdropper on February 04, 2015, 09:37:55 PM
This actually seems like a lower grade chip. Other than the THD, it also has less than half of the memory.
Could they intentionally be setting some sort of lower memory so the chip doesn't reach the threshold to distort?
That "D" datasheet is dated 2005... I wonder if it'll apply to these "new" chips.
Quote from: Scruffie on February 04, 2015, 10:05:07 PM
That "D" datasheet is dated 2005... I wonder if it'll apply to these "new" chips.
Oh, I didn't notice that.
Perhaps there are different chips. If true, they really should've used a different naming scheme.
Quote from: Scruffie on February 04, 2015, 10:05:07 PM
That "D" datasheet is dated 2005... I wonder if it'll apply to these "new" chips.
Hmm, the current PT2399 doc on their site is dated 2010 (http://www.princeton.com.tw/Portals/0/Product/PT2399_1.pdf (http://www.princeton.com.tw/Portals/0/Product/PT2399_1.pdf)). And, I can't find anything about a "D" version. It all seems weird.
"Better chip"? This is some 1984 double speak shit right here.
Quote from: midwayfair on February 04, 2015, 11:17:03 PM
"Better chip"? This is some 1984 double speak shit right here.
who said better? it has to be checked and compared first. We still don't know what version it really is. I'm sill waiting for a response from my supplier (it's 0:22am here in Spain).
I did a bit of searching around and I found one schematic from a JVC compact system that used the PT2399D. The doc is dated from 2006. I also found references to PT2399C devices. I haven't seen that one before. What I'm wondering is if these are OEM parts built for specific products. If the only really difference is the memory and the clock rate, it probably would be a fairly easy change for them and could be done as a cost cutting measure or to match some other aspect of the design.
Quote from: midwayfair on February 04, 2015, 11:17:03 PM
This is some 1984 double speak shit right here.
As I read 1984 in Spanish years ago, the term "doublespeak" related to the book didn't mean a thing to me. A quick google search, comon sense and some chat with my mother (she is a philosophy teacher) revealed me its meaning.
No doublespeak nor doublethink here Sir (at least not from me) and my distributor has written to Princeton Tech.
I hope we could have some new useful information in a near future.
I am tempted to do some A/B comparision, but due to the variability in quality these chips present, I don't know if it's going to be of much use to us.
Quote from: micromegas on February 04, 2015, 11:57:05 PM
No doublespeak nor doublethink here Sir (at least not from me) and my distributor has written to Princeton Tech.
I hope we could have some new useful information in a near future.
I wasn't implying that you were deceiving someone. I was referring to your supplier saying that it's "exactly like the PT2399 but with the distortion problem sorted out" when Dave and Cody quick dug up that it's exactly the opposite.
I sent this to PTC
QuoteI am part of a DIY guitar effects pedal group and a member mentioned a new version of the 2399 chip marked PT2399D-D that addresses some of the audio distortion issues at longer delay times. Can you confirm if this is actually a new chip manufactured by PTC or is fake/rebadged chip?
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Cody
and I got this
QuoteDear Mr. Cody Deschenes,
Thank you for your email and interest in PTC product.
In fact, PT2399 has been under mass production for at least 20 years.
The IC marked PT2399D-D, the version is too old and that we are unable to verify the IC mark.
Please find attached newest spec for your reference. You can also find our order information on p.3.
Below are our current orderable versions of PT2399 for your information.
1. PT2399: 16 Pins, DIP, 300mil (IC Top code/mark: PT2399)
2. PT2399S: 16 Pins, SOP, 300mil (IC Top code/mark: PT2399S)
3. PT2399-SN: 16 Pins, SOP, 150mil (IC Top code/mark: PT2399-SN)
.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟ ﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･
Debbie Ho 何淑娟
Product Customer Service
Princeton Technology Corp. 普誠科技股份有限公司
Tel: +886-2-2916-2151 ext. 23322
Fax: +886-2-2917-4598
http://www.princeton.com.tw
ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟ ﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..
Here is the file she attached but it looks like the one that is online already and nothing new to us.
http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/PT2399_1.pdf (http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/PT2399_1.pdf)
(http://forums-cdn.appleinsider.com/3/3d/3d325d2d_MythBusted.gif)
Quote from: selfdestroyer on February 05, 2015, 11:55:12 PM
I sent this to PTC
QuoteI am part of a DIY guitar effects pedal group and a member mentioned a new version of the 2399 chip marked PT2399D-D that addresses some of the audio distortion issues at longer delay times. Can you confirm if this is actually a new chip manufactured by PTC or is fake/rebadged chip?
Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks
Cody
and I got this
QuoteDear Mr. Cody Deschenes,
Thank you for your email and interest in PTC product.
In fact, PT2399 has been under mass production for at least 20 years.
The IC marked PT2399D-D, the version is too old and that we are unable to verify the IC mark.
Please find attached newest spec for your reference. You can also find our order information on p.3.
Below are our current orderable versions of PT2399 for your information.
1. PT2399: 16 Pins, DIP, 300mil (IC Top code/mark: PT2399)
2. PT2399S: 16 Pins, SOP, 300mil (IC Top code/mark: PT2399S)
3. PT2399-SN: 16 Pins, SOP, 150mil (IC Top code/mark: PT2399-SN)
.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟ ﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･
Debbie Ho 何淑娟
Product Customer Service
Princeton Technology Corp. 普誠科技股份有限公司
Tel: +886-2-2916-2151 ext. 23322
Fax: +886-2-2917-4598
http://www.princeton.com.tw
ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟ ﾟ･*:.｡..｡.:*･ﾟﾟ･*:.｡..
Here is the file she attached but it looks like the one that is online already and nothing new to us.
http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/PT2399_1.pdf (http://music.codydeschenes.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/PT2399_1.pdf)
Thank you Cody!
I am writing to my distributor right away.
Sorry guys, I thought I've discovered gold and it was just some painted horse shit....
Where do you get these from?
Quote from: micromegas on February 04, 2015, 06:47:00 PM
My local distributor just anounced this on their facebook page:
(http://www.retroamplis.com/WebRoot/StoreES2/Shops/62070367/54CF/9A80/516F/9A5F/5DE9/C0A8/2AB9/0726/PT2399D-D.jpg)
PT2399D-D: they say is exactly like the PT2399 but with the distortion problem sorted out.
I'll get some to try and make a comparation.
Quote from: garfo on February 06, 2015, 10:04:27 AM
Where do you get these from?
Quote from: micromegas on February 04, 2015, 06:47:00 PM
My local distributor just anounced this on their facebook page:
(http://www.retroamplis.com/WebRoot/StoreES2/Shops/62070367/54CF/9A80/516F/9A5F/5DE9/C0A8/2AB9/0726/PT2399D-D.jpg)
PT2399D-D: they say is exactly like the PT2399 but with the distortion problem sorted out.
I'll get some to try and make a comparation.
I did not get it yet, my local distributor (Retroamplis) anounced them on facebook.
He is a stand up guy, I wrote him and he told me their distributor gave them the same datasheet they already had for the PT2399.
He has written to both Princeton and their distributor and say it's been a hell to try to get an answer but that they finally gave him one and is quite similar to the one Cody posted before.
He is quite upset because they have made him look like a fool and thinks it's quite possible they have tried to get rid of that batch by telling him that was a new chip.
He has also thanked me for sharing the PT2399D-D datasheet with him (I told him we were debating about the chip).
don't know if any of you can read Spanish, but here is our conversation:
my query:
Quote
He compartido la nueva versión del PT2399 (el PT2399D-D) en un foro pensando que podría interesar y me han pasado esta datasheet: http://www.gwerder-elektronik.ch/files/PT2399D.pdf
Es del 2005 pero, comparándola con la del PT2399 que tienen los de Princeton en su página, se aprecia que la versión "D-D" tiene la mitad de memoria interna (20k frente a los 44k del PT2399 "estándar") y la THD bastante más alta.
Puede que la información esté desactualizada, pero me parecía importante comunicároslo por si acaso lo podías contrastar con el distribuidor.
Tendré que comprar alguno para probarlo de todas formas .
Un saludo!
his response:
Quote
Hola Adán,
Gracias por la ficha técnica. La hemos estado pidiendo al fabricante y no nos la ha facilitado. La verdad es que el servicio de atención al cliente de Princeton deja bastante que desear. Llevo unos cuantos días en contacto con ellos hablando de este asunto, por eso es que no había respondido antes al comentario del Facebook. Al final hemos quedado como chones en un patatal por culpa de esta gente.
Compramos la partida de estos chip a un distribuidor autorizado de Princeton en Taiwán (recomendados por ellos mismos) y este nos ha dicho que es una versión mejorada del PT2399, lo que os comentaba en el face. Le hemos preguntado al fabricante sobre esto y nos ha dicho que ese integrado no existe o que era una falsificación. Ya indignado les he enviado la ficha técnica que me has facilitado tú ayer y esta mañana me han contestado. La persona que me contesta una tal Debbie Ho, se ha quedado de piedra ella y también el distribuidor. Me dicen que llevan mas de 40 años fabricando el chip y que ese es muy antiguo y que por eso no tenían información de él. Me da la sensación de que esta chica no tiene conocimientos técnicos y se ha lanzado a responder sin contrastar con el departamento de ingeniería o simplemente no se toman estas cosas muy enserio. También hay gato encerrado entre el distribuidor y el fabricante, no se si han tratado de vender esta partida para quitársela de encima. De momento estoy tratando de que me den una solución, ya veremos. No se si lo sabrás pero comprar en china es una experiencia bastante pantanosa. Pronto actualizaré la información de la web y del facebook. Gracias nuevamente por la actualización de lo contrario me la hubiesen colado hasta atrás!!
Sad story indeed ... :-/
It's really a bummer that there are not many reliable components that can be easily obtainable for delay purposes.
Delays are one teritory where I have always been quite contempt with DSP stuff, even if that rules out diy. (except using something like the Spinsemi FV-1)
Digital delays nowadays are really good at sounding like analog ones or even better since they don't have the intrinsic limitations that BBD's (or PT2399's) have.
Still it's always fun to do something oneself :-)
You are studying EE, isnt it? Will you perhaps be developing a new chip for us one of these days? :-D
Quote from: drolo on February 06, 2015, 12:19:16 PM
You are studying EE, isnt it? Will you perhaps be developing a new chip for us one of these days? :-D
That's right David, although I'm specialized in radio communications... but I have future plans related to dsp and audio stuff so, who knows :P?