Can you use Cat5e cable to carry audio signal and power? If not, is there 1 cable to rule them all?
Playing around with the idea with running power to a pedal board and carrying the signal to and from an effects loop (modding an amp to accept the Cat5e)
I've been doing some googling and apparently 24gauge Cat5e can carry up to 2.1 amps which is about what a one spot puts out. That would leave 2 wires for audio, which would be sufficient for an effects loop.
Wire 1 - +9V
Wire 2 - Ground
Wire 3 - Send
Wire 4 - Return
yes you can, although it doesn't always solder the best.
both power and signal are okay. although it doesn't have huge current capacity (~0.6A) but it should work just fine.
i assume you plan on stripping the outer insulation and using the individual conductors.
Interesting question. My first concern would be running power with the audio signal. CAT5 cable is twisted in such a way to help with signal loss but it may also introduce noise to the audio path. This is just purely speculation and look forward to other comments.
Cody
So the max it could deliver would be .6 Amps? The article I read sounded like it could carry 2 Amps.
Quote from: selfdestroyer on June 04, 2014, 10:30:17 PM
Interesting question. My first concern would be running power with the audio signal. CAT5 cable is twisted in such a way to help with signal loss but it may also introduce noise to the audio path. This is just purely speculation and look forward to other comments.
Cody
pedals are all DC which don't cause noise (you'll remember a changing magnetic field induces current). cat5e is actually designed to supply power and carry signal, frequently for remote equipment like network switches and security cameras.
May be a hair brained idea BUT:
Just picked up a VHT Special 6. Looking at the mods others are doing. Saw a guy put a 9v out on the back of the amp to power his pedalboard (visual one spot in the chassy). Saw another mod of adding an effects loop. My thought was, it'd be interesting to think through doing both with one cable. You could have the cat5 terminate to a 1590a underneath your board and have the 1/4" jacks for the signal and DC jack for powering a small board.
Quote from: PhiloB on June 04, 2014, 10:32:32 PM
So the max it could deliver would be .6 Amps? The article I read sounded like it could carry 2 Amps.
dunno, this may be the result of field testing (aka some guy running current thru a wire until it melt), which is certainly going to be much larger than the actual spec. i'm going off the wikipedia article about cat5e. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_5_cable)
As said before, yeah you can. I worked for an A/V company for a bit and this method is used by companies like ISP HDDS systems and Yamaha consoles (CL5). Because of lack of shielding and close proximity, these are possibly susceptible to more noise. The clear benefit is the cost and availability.
found this article:
http://www.lifeisaprayer.com/articles/audio-video/xlr-mic-level-balanced-audio-over-cat5e
Quote from: stecykmi on June 04, 2014, 10:38:03 PM
Quote from: selfdestroyer on June 04, 2014, 10:30:17 PM
Interesting question. My first concern would be running power with the audio signal. CAT5 cable is twisted in such a way to help with signal loss but it may also introduce noise to the audio path. This is just purely speculation and look forward to other comments.
Cody
pedals are all DC which don't cause noise (you'll remember a changing magnetic field induces current). cat5e is actually designed to supply power and carry signal, frequently for remote equipment like network switches and security cameras.
I do not know anything about DC so I guess I should have not commented on such, but I do use POE on all my APs and security cameras up to 300 feet. So I do know CAT5 is capable of carrying voltage, I just did not know how it would react with audio signal running with it. My bad.
Cody
PhiloB,
I found that cat5 is awg-24 gauge which means each strand can handle 3.5 amps (max free air) and 2.1 amps (max enclosed)
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity#AWG
I don't know if it'd be worth while. I like the idea of a small portable amp, small pedal board and minimal wires and power plugs. It would be cool to run audio out from the board, effects loop and pedal power all in one cable.
Thanks JTN191!
As i'm putting together a live rig with bunch of convenience and utility aspect i've come to that questionning aswell (couple weeks ago). Looking at what custom cable company offers, Lava Cable i.e. where they offer «snakes» with 110VAC in them and not having any issue (emailed them), it made that idea more concrete to me.
Than i was stroke by a lightning. PA snakes or any snakes for sound reinforcement.... Phantom Power, you'll have a line with 48VDC running along other audio signal, you have light signal (DMX) wich is basically electric pulses. Never had any problem with that after 13 years of working in that domain.
I use a multi-cable style cable that contains a 2 conductor shield (Audio) and 3 conductor non-shield (Power) for making rig snakes from pedal board to amp.. there are other configurations that even allow say Audio + Midi + Power and the individual paths are separated (jacketed) inside a larger jacket...
here is an example..
http://www.van-damme.com/21.html
AllenM
I did a little more research and the noise seems to be related to if there's shielding or not. Also found these http://www.pedalsnake.com/page.php?id=63
http://www.lavacable.com/index.php?id=150
This seems like a pretty cool idea! keep us posted on how it turns out
I've tried cat5 before but I didn't like it personally. Very brittle and quite stiff. Maybe that's my anti-solid core preference coming through, but I do use cat5 for breadboard links. Works well!
Quote from: PhiloB on June 04, 2014, 10:40:11 PM
May be a hair brained idea BUT:
Just picked up a VHT Special 6. Looking at the mods others are doing. Saw a guy put a 9v out on the back of the amp to power his pedalboard (visual one spot in the chassy).
What I love about the VHT 12/20 is that it has a 9VDC output on the back for pedals. Brilliant idea.
That's where the guy got the inspiration. He used plastic ties to secure the transformer inside the amp and hooked it up to the on/off power switch. Drilled a hole for the DC near the external speaker outs.
Chromosphere, I had a Line6 footboard that ran off Cat5. It is stiff but I never had any problems with it.
That is my hesitation though, I don't want to put a Ethernet port on the back of the amp to find out I don't like it!
Just wanted to chime in and say that the headphone system at my studio (6-channel mixers) uses CAT5 only, for both power and audio. However, it's a bit of a pain in the ass. The connectors and the jacks can get loose, which means sometimes you'll randomly drop a channel until the cables get reseated. Not the biggest deal, but not something you want to happen in the middle of a gig either.
lincolnic, definitely something to think about. I'm considering building two boxes to test it out before permanently drilling the amp.
Why bother? They're working on wireless power distribution. ;)
http://www.rezence.com/alliance/about-a4wp
The Furman studio headphone system used Cat5 for analog audio and power distribution (power, 1 stereo, 4 mono channels). You might be able to find some diagrams for pinouts, etc. Definitely use molded or strain-relieved plugs. Regular crimped connectors are the weak link in that scenario. Trust me.
Thanks oldhousescott!
Anybody with experience using this type of cabling for any purpose recommend a vendor for the supplies?
Quote from: PhiloB on June 05, 2014, 06:48:32 PM
Thanks oldhousescott!
Anybody with experience using this type of cabling for any purpose recommend a vendor for the supplies?
I would probably check out Markertek first.
Quote from: PhiloB on June 05, 2014, 01:27:20 AM
Chromosphere, I had a Line6 footboard that ran off Cat5. It is stiff but I never had any problems with it.
That is my hesitation though, I don't want to put a Ethernet port on the back of the amp to find out I don't like it!
Hey Philo. Helps if I read the thread properly before responding :D I thought you meant using the wires from cat5 for building! Yeah im sure reliability wise cat5 would be fine. No idea about power handling but I would expect it to be low...whats a high bit of a transmitted digital network signal? 5v? Anyway, would be interesting to see other applications for cat5. Interconnecting between pedals etc. Prob better suited to the digital world though.
Quote from: oldhousescott on June 05, 2014, 06:04:09 PM
The Furman studio headphone system used Cat5 for analog audio and power distribution (power, 1 stereo, 4 mono channels). You might be able to find some diagrams for pinouts, etc. Definitely use molded or strain-relieved plugs. Regular crimped connectors are the weak link in that scenario. Trust me.
This is exactly the headphone system I mentioned in my earlier post. You'll definitely want to make sure you're using stronger connectors if they exist.
I'd be curious about capacitance per foot. It would be worth it to shoot out X number of feet of cat5 against the same length quality instrument cable being fed with an unbuffered signal.
I use a 6' cat6 in my test rig and it works beautifully to carry signal and power to and from the enclosure. I use stranded wire where it breaks out to test clips because the solid core is way too stiff to be useful in that application.