Well, not quite, but how about 9 options with two switches?
Or, 3 options with only one switch?
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Nice. I was just wondering about this. Sun King board in the mail.
Would this be usable on other pedals that pairs of diodes?
Wouldn't mind experimenting with this on my Uproar once I get it built.
Yes, this could be done on any diode clipping section.
Jacob
O.k. - cool.
How 'bout some suggestions for the diode pairs?
Cheers, Mike
Sure
2x 1n270
2x RED LED
4 x BAT41 (two in series per side)
1N4001 x 2x1n914 (asymmetrical)
2 x 2n7000 wired as diodes (solder Drain and Gate together)
2x 1n60 (schottky or germanium)
One more suggestion for clipping would be to add a resistor in parallel with the diodes. I think 100ohm will do, but other values would be worth trying. This softens the clipping a fair amount, which can be dramatic with silicon or LED diodes.
I've also used JFET diodes and MOSFET transistors as Brian has suggested. There are multiple ways of making this happen, but there are lots of options to try:
2N5457
2N7000
J201
2N2222
My usual go to diodes are:
1N914
1N4148
1N400X
BAT41
1N270
1N60
Red/Yellow/Green/Blue LED's
and my favourites...
1N34A
Jacob
Here's a good one I have used a couple of times to help me decide which diodes/combinations to use in a pedal. Not my layout found it on freestompboxes.
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This is really cool guys! My only question about the diodes is this, I bought the NOS Germs from Smallbear that are a work alike for the 1n34a. How close can I expect these to sound like the 1n34a's? The reason I ask is because I thought they really sounded kind of dull in my Sunking build. I know sound is subjective but I noticed that many builds use these. Would it be worth trying the 1n34a's vs. the "work a likes?"
Experimenting with diode selection is the best thing you can do to personalize the Sunking. If those sound dull, then put away for something else! It is not a dull sounding circuit by any means.
You can find some reasonable priced germaniums on eBay. I've bought small quantities of 1n34a, 1n270 and 1n60 before. So, if you feel like spending a few dollars it could be worth your while.
For sure it is not a dull sounding circuit but I noticed a difference between the 1n270's which I settled on instead of those "work a like' 1n34a's. Ok, I'll shop around, I did socket those so I'm good to go there.
I have to say I am really liking this circuit, great tone from this pedal. The part that is driving me crazy is that I am going to etch the enclosure and I am waiting to box it up until then..."the waiting is the hardest part."
I need to give some different diode sets a try, thanks for the diagram.
Nice. I will definitely be doing this at some point when I can take the time to drill my enclosure. This seems like it could be very cool, but how big of a difference will I really be able to tell between all these diodes?
Very useful! My mods folder is getting much bigger!
Quote from: rhcp311 on February 14, 2011, 10:21:58 PM
Nice. I will definitely be doing this at some point when I can take the time to drill my enclosure. This seems like it could be very cool, but how big of a difference will I really be able to tell between all these diodes?
I think that's the rub, you won't really know until you try it out. Really depends on what you hear. I'm building my first Sunking with this mod from the get-go so I can hear what's what and determine what I like.
Quote from: madbean on February 10, 2011, 06:06:45 PM
Sure
2x 1n270
2x RED LED
4 x BAT41 (two in series per side)
1N4001 x 2x1n914 (asymmetrical)
2 x 2n7000 wired as diodes (solder Drain and Gate together)
2x 1n60 (schottky or germanium)
Regarding the 4 BAT41s... I'm a little confused by the term "in series." (There's still quite a bit about pedal building that befuddles me.) Are you saying to put a pair of BAT41s on, say, the lower toggle of each switch so both switches down use the BAT41s, or do you mean that each individual diode shown on, for example, the bottom left switch would actually be two BAT41s end to end, putting all four diodes into a single toggle?
Also, do I have to put a length of wire between the diode ends that go to the switch's solder terminal, or could I attach both those ends directly to the terminal?
Thanks!
I'm not sure which wires you're talking about and such, but I can tell you what series and parallel is.
Series is in a row. If you took one Diode, and then attached another diode in line behind it, this would be series. For example:
connection - diode - diode - connection
Parallel is side by side. Both diodes connect to the same connection points
/ diode \
connection connection
\ diode /
Make sense?
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on March 14, 2011, 08:09:39 PM
I'm not sure which wires you're talking about and such, but I can tell you what series and parallel is.
Series is in a row. If you took one Diode, and then attached another diode in line behind it, this would be series. For example:
connection - diode - diode - connection
Parallel is side by side. Both diodes connect to the same connection points
/ diode \
connection connection
\ diode /
Make sense?
Jacob
Something to add is the polarity of the diodes...in series your diodes should look like this:
---|>|----|>|----
d1 d2
You can think of it this way, the current flows the direction that the "arrow" on the diode symbol points to. (The vertical line is your negative terminal). In parallel (I'm not 100% sure) but I think it should be like this?:
d1
---|>|---
--| |---
---|<|---
d2
Somebody correct me if I'm wrong here :)
Hope that helps!
-Kaleb
Well put Kaleb. That's the common application for diodes.
Jacob
:) Awesome. Thanks Jacob.
Hope all this helps Paulo! Good luck.
-Kaleb
Also for good reference:
TESTING SILICON DIODES (NOT LED OR ZENER)
To test a silicon diode such as a 1N914 or a 1N4001 all you need is an ohm-meter. If you are using an analog VOM type meter, set the meter to one of the lower ohms scales, say 0-2K, and measure the resistance of the diode both ways. If you get zero both ways, the diode is shorted. If you get INFINITY both ways, the diode is open. If you get INFINITY one way but some reading the other way (the value is not important) then the diode is good.
If you use a digital multi-meter (DMM), then there should be a special setting on the Ohms range for testing diodes.
Measure the diode resistance both ways. One way the meter should indicate an open circuit. The other way you should get a reading (often a reading around 600). That indicates the diode is good. If you measure an open circuit both ways, the diode is open. If you measure low resistance both ways, the diode is shorted.
Ooof! Lots of into to take in, but dad-GUM if you guys aren't the freakin' smartest bunch of musicians EVER. Gonna ask a couple more digging questions to make sure I wire this right...
From my understanding of the series vs. parallel explanation, Madbean's diagram in the first post shows each pair of diodes as being in parallel as they're connected to the switch... I think, at least. According to the diagram, the wire coming from the negative side of D1 and D2 goes to the positive terminal of the first diode and the negative terminal of the second in the first pair of diodes. Then it's essentially the same thing on the side that connects to the switch, and then the whole thing is repeated for the bottom set of diodes. The BAT41 setup he describes in his later post has two pairs of BAT41s in series with each other, so instead of just being one diode as represented by the diagram, there'd be two. That sound about right?
My earlier question was in regard to how the diodes are attached to the leads from the board and to the switch. The diagram seems to indicate the diodes need to be connected with additional wiring in between them at both contact points with the leads rather than the ends of both diodes being directly connected to each other at the same exact contact point on the leads. Make sense? For example, I'm trying to determine if I can attach the diodes directly to the solder terminal on the switch or if I have to use the additional wiring.
Hope this helps explain my question!
You can attach them right to the switch.
Don't forget about asymmetrical clipping (my personal favorite ;)) which sounds a little more "tube like"
d1 d2
---|>|-|>|--
--| |---
-----|<|----
d3
josh
Quote from: gtr2 on March 15, 2011, 11:37:02 AM
You can attach them right to the switch.
Don't forget about asymmetrical clipping (my personal favorite ;)) which sounds a little more "tube like"
d1 d2
---|>|-|>|--
--| |---
-----|<|----
d3
josh
Good to know! I always wondered what the difference was between symmetrical and asymmetrical clipping. I suppose "tube-like" is a simple description of the difference? Also, I see the top two diodes are directly end to end; that's a
series circuit, right? Learnin' new stuff!!
Any particular combinations of diodes to use? Madbean put an example in his earlier post. I gotta see what I have, got a bunch of diodes in the other day from Smallbear and meowy from this board, so it's not like I have a shortage. ;D
Yes, that's a combination series and parallel circuit. The top two diodes are in series with each other, and in parallel with the lower diode.
Combining diodes is an interesting thing. Generally, we all use one type of diode for clipping in a pedal. But, it could be interesting to try mixing diodes, for example, using silicon in series and germanium for the parallel diodes in the asymmetric clipping above.
The list of diodes used by Brian and I are earlier inthis thread.
Jacob
Quote from: jkokura on March 15, 2011, 04:34:26 PM
Yes, that's a combination series and parallel circuit. The top two diodes are in series with each other, and in parallel with the lower diode.
Combining diodes is an interesting thing. Generally, we all use one type of diode for clipping in a pedal. But, it could be interesting to try mixing diodes, for example, using silicon in series and germanium for the parallel diodes in the asymmetric clipping above.
The list of diodes used by Brian and I are earlier inthis thread.
Jacob
I noticed when I went back and looked at Madbean's post that his asymmetrical example was the mixed diode one that used three diodes. Would love to try that one, but I'm not sure if I actually have any 1N914s. I bought a bunch of stuff off meowy, but there were some unlabeled diodes that look exactly like the 1N34As he sent. He said they
might be 1N914s in his original Buy/Sell/Trade post, but I don't know how to tell. I shot him a PM asking about it.
Thought I throw this in here too: another way for a gazzilion different clipping options. With a DIP switch and a piece of perf board you can switch back and forth, several, actual any and multiple combination from symetrical to asym.
Here's one I prepared earlier so to speak, throw your own ingredients/diodes in as you wish.
Not really my idea or anywhere new, but I've done it on several pedals and it can be great fun. Requires cutting a rectengular hole in enclosure side to fit DIP switch and then glue it in (with epoxy I did...) when everything tested and confirmed.
Could also be used to muck around and try lots of different clippers on a prototype board flicking the switches.
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Yet another picture of it... I didn't manage to attach several pics to post, sorry.
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Front view...
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... and finally put inside a pedal... sorry for having this in four different posts, maybe someone can enlighten me how to shrink file size so I could do it in one with loosing too much resolution?! Cheers
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How did you cut the enclosure for that?
Josh
Quote from: gtr2 on March 17, 2011, 12:10:26 PM
How did you cut the enclosure for that?
My thought as well. I'm guessing this would also be how one would put in a battery compartment. BTW, why 5 pots?
Very cool switch; let us know your favorite diodes
Quote from: jkokura on March 15, 2011, 04:34:26 PM
Yes, that's a combination series and parallel circuit. The top two diodes are in series with each other, and in parallel with the lower diode.
Combining diodes is an interesting thing. Generally, we all use one type of diode for clipping in a pedal. But, it could be interesting to try mixing diodes, for example, using silicon in series and germanium for the parallel diodes in the asymmetric clipping above.
The list of diodes used by Brian and I are earlier inthis thread.
Jacob
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that 3 diodes in series? They are all still Anode to Cathode, for series-parallel wouldn't the "bottom" diode need flipped?
For example
---|>|----|>|----
d1 d2
and
d1
---|>|---
--| |---
---|<|---
d2
are both series since they both are Anode to Cathode
Parallel would be Anode to Anode Cathode to Cathode
---|>|----|<|----
d1 d2
d1
---|>|---
--| |---
---|>|---
d2
So wouldn't
d1 d2
---|>|-|>|--
--| |---
-----|<|----
d3
be a series circuit? A parallel would be
d1 d2
---|>|-|>|--
--| |---
-----|>|----
d3
I cut the hole by first marking the outside with pencil, drilling several holes to open it up wide enough to get into it with a small flat file, working it then to rectengular to fit DIP switch. Takes a bit of filing but rewards are freely changeable diodes in gazzilion ways from out side while playing (get a mate to play while you switch) and hearing difference instantly.
Five pots because this is a Marshall Guvnor MK1 clone, gain/treble/middle/bass/vol knobs.
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It's a series-parallel combination circuit so to speak. The parallel connection is just referring to how D3 is connected over D1 and D2. Both examples you gave at the bottom have D3 in parallel, its just for the 2nd one D3 wouldn't conduct because the polarity is wrong.
D1 D2
--[(+)-(-)]--[(+)-(-)]--
--l l--
-------[(+)-(-)]---------
Thats how you have it set up on the last diagram. So voltage would flow from D1 + to - then D2 + to - then it would get blocked at the entry of D3 because the first entry point would be reverse polarity(-).
Directionality doesn't matter for series or parallel, it has nothing to do with the diodes themselves, but how the parts are arranged. You could do the same with resistors or caps, or anything really. Parallel is side by side, series is one after another.
For example, let's look at this:
resistor - diode - capacitor
Signal start < resistor > signal end
diode < > diode
capacitor
So in this case, we've got a whole lot of parallel and series going. But notice that it's all kinds of parts. It doesn't matter, they're still parallel or series.
The top row of resistor - diode - capacitor is in series. But parallel to that is another set of diode, resistor and capacitor, so the two batches are the same parts in parallel to each other. The arrangement of the bottom three parts doesn't matter, they're still in parallel to the top three.
However, to themselves, the bottom three are in a particular order. The diode is in series with both, but the cap and resistor are in parallel with each other.
Do you see how the relationship of parallel and series works now? This is the very beginning of how Electrical circuits work. Cool hey?!?
Jacob
Oh geesh I am a moron! This is what I get for replying to something while I'm sick and my brain is mush. I start mixing and matching electrical concepts that my professors would beat me for misquoting! My apologies guys. Pay no attention to my fevered idiocy ::)
Haha. No worries! I totally find myself complicating concepts all the time too. Thats why i love diagrams. Makes its so easy. And Madbean makes damn nice diagrams!!
Gobstopper's switch idea would work in a Klon, right? How about a Muff? Man, maybe too many options is noncomittal but it's awesome ;D
It would work on anything that relies on diode clipping for it's distorition.
A Muff does have some clipping diodes, however, that's not where the distortion is coming from on the Muff.
Any typical opamp overdrive with clipping diodes, the Sunking included, it should work for.
Jacob
according to Kitrae, "The signature Muff sound comes from the two diode clipping sections in a row in the four stage transistor amplifier design" and a lot of it also comes from the caps
Yes, without it the circuit doesnt sound anything like it should. My point was that changing the diode type makes little to no difference. You wouldn't hear much difference changing the type. A small change can be heard changing the configuration but you can do that with a toggle switch much easier.
Jacob
Quote from: jtn191 on March 18, 2011, 07:04:41 AM
according to Kitrae, "The signature Muff sound comes from the two diode clipping sections in a row in the four stage transistor amplifier design" and a lot of it also comes from the caps
I'm wondering if that classic, mean raw muff tone heard in triangle, RH, VRH is due to their use of ceramic disc caps. The few muff clones i've built sound good, but not exactly like the demos i hear.
could somebody re-up the images? I'm trying to install a DIP switch and don't know which pads to connect to...
what's confusing is how in the schematic it goes -->|---GND--->|
|_____________|
In the schematic and docs of the Green Bean there's a nice bit on experimenting with diodes. Read it and the whole "series/parallel, symetrical/asymetrical" deal becomes much clearer. There's even a switch to change between sym and asym in there, great example to use in other builds!
Paul
any chance of reposting the mod ?
As per the last post - any chance of re-posting the mod?
Any particular reason it was deleted in the first place??
A lot of the older posts got deleted a while back. The image upload thing was full or something, so Brian had to delete old stuff.
I don't have the mod, but I'm sure someone does. ;)
Quote from: thetrend77 on April 05, 2012, 04:31:24 PM
I don't have the mod, but I'm sure someone does. ;)
Anyone?
Let's see if this works. Here's what I got from a forum member here. This might be what you are looking for.
Forgive me if it takes me a minute to get the link right.
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w104/pollen-productions/Suggestions.jpg)
Cheers
"B"
Great stuff - many thanks!
I've got a way to do this with three clipper pairs per switch, using a DPDT on/on/on switch. I have a hand-drawn version of it but not the fancy drawing software you are using! I'm fairly new to this forum but not pedal building (I have to admit I don't know what a Sun king is) but I used this mod with six separate pairs of clipping diodes on perfboard, with two DPDT on/on/on switches on a BMP build to get a whole range of sounds out of it.
If there's any interest I'll dig the drawing up.
I'd be interested in the diagram please